"Revisionist"historian faces gaol

[scoia]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4733820.stm

Irving, a "revisionist" historian who has denied that the holocaust ever happened (and the Hitler "helped" the Jews in Europe) has been charged under Austria's Nazi suppression laws.

Funnily enough, he's now claiming that he was wrong all along

I think the guy's a twat, but I'm against these laws, and I agree that they should be scrapped. Mock, taunt, *gasp* even educate these idiots, but giving them gaol time is only going to make a martyr.

Do you all think the trial is worth it?

[Librarian]

They should be publicly exposed and held up to ridicule. Jailed, though? That would just give the conspiracy nutz something to talk about and provide him with more fanatics.

[Kelreth]

Well I was gana say Kill him as an example.....But that would seem to be the worst idea possible cause it would make him a martyr and get more followers.

So instead how about we through him into some relearning classes? Teach what really happened

[scoia]

Considering that, according to him, he only revised his views after seeing Eichman's personal notes in the flesh, I don't think a class would really convince someone who doesn't want to be convinced.

I think they should go for a creative punishment instead of gaol time. Forced to wear an "I'm a wanker" sign around his neck for the next decade for example.

Forbidden to ever drink again, maybe. Oh, oh, I know! He could perform one of his "lectures" at a rabbinical school in poland. Bye bye, Mr. nose cartilege.

[Ragnar]

Since 1955 "Holocaust denial" has been an offence in Germany and Austria.
In others, at different dates, Denmark, France, Holland etc.

The actual reason WHY it needed to be so, is not that clear.

The point with this Irving idiot, is that he has, or HAD, some credibility in the acedemic world. The neo nazis flocked around his ideas, like saegulls on a garbage dump.

The neo nazis have enough people that they could use as martyrs, some could be described as REAL ones, in that they were hanged by "the enemy, for what they believed". The Nürnburg lot, for example. They don't.

So, putting him in prison will not, I think, make a martyr of him. May be a few protests outside the jail, by neo nazi types. But after two months, even they will be hard put to, to even remember his name.

The actual law, is ambiguous.

For example. Near me there is Sachsenhausen, which was a concentration camp (KZ). Now here there is the old cremetorium, where there are the walls still about 2 foot high, and the tiled floors. the rest has been destroyed. There is a floor space, or "room" there about 2 meters square.
This has a plaque on it "Gas chamber. Up to 2000 people at a time were squeezed into here and gassed."

I am sorry, WHAT? This room is 2 meters square, you couldn't fit 2000 KIPPERS in there. Obviously the plaque needs some alteration, or clarification. But I gave up trying when they threatened to report me for "holocaust denial"!

Fact. These people where hanged by Israel.

In the Warsaw ghetto, groups of Jews were tortured shot and killed, by the Jewish camp police.

That, under "holocaust denial", is illeagal to say in public. Even though it is true.

So, sometimes, the law gives rise to it's own conspiraccy theory. Which the Neo nazis jump on with glee.

[Rain ForestMoon]

This is a difficult one.

Locking up and/or killing people who said something other than what is consistent with the "approved" line was the very thing that made the Nazis so successful. (And the were very successful, it's just that the success did not last very long.,,,)

So, by locking up and/or (wanting to) killing someone like that, we become more like the Nazis themselves. Which means, that, in a sense they have won in the long run. We have become like them..........

Blessings

[Ragnar]

I think you are right.

The ability to deny the holocaust in U.K, U.S, Australia(?), has NOT lead to a massive rise in neo naziism. But here the protest against the ban has. Relatively.

BUT, for obvious reasons, the German and Austrian people and Governments, are very sensative about it.

Remember that, even now, to some extent, the Germans are on a kind of "probation". This will last untill the 33 > 45 generation are long gone.

So they DO tend to tread more carefully than the rest of the world have to.

It is the rest of the world that is judging.

[scoia]

The ability to deny the holocaust in U.K, U.S, Australia(?), has NOT lead to a massive rise in neo naziism.

We don't have a ban on anything in relation to the Holocaust, be we do currently have "sedition" laws in place in relation to stirring up of trouble from Islamic fundamentalists. We don't quite have freedom of speech here either then.

I'd quite like them to comply and out similar laws in place against Christian fundamentalists, but you know. It's rather unlikely

[Grumpy]

Let's put them in jail and then deny we did it.

[Kelreth]

Let's put them in jail and then deny we did it.

Seconded with another to them

[Ragnar]

We don't have a ban on anything in relation to the Holocaust, be we do currently have "sedition" laws in place in relation to stirring up of trouble from Islamic fundamentalists. We don't quite have freedom of speech here either then.

It seems strange that, in Euorope at least, to prove we are in favour of "free speech", the said "free speech" is being curtailed for every one except those that caused the trouble in the first place. The plackards that were being carried in the recent London demonstrations, for instance, would have brought you or me 5 years in prison for inciting murder and violence, race hate (against non "whatever you happen to be"), and Now "inciting terrorism".

Yet OTHERS, just to prove how wonderful our "Free democraticc speech" is, get away with it "scott free".

[scoia]

I agree. We all (speaking in terms of whole countries, not people) like to proclaim that we are democratic "liberal" countries, where freedom of expression is paramount etc etc.

The truth of it seems to be that these countries don't want anyone to actually excercise those rights if it 'happens' to offend anyone. Free in name only, but you're still in danger if you voice an opinion that isn't acceptable to everyone. And what the hell is?

[Ragnar]

The truth of it seems to be that these countries don't want anyone to actually excercise those rights if it 'happens' to offend anyone.

Well, as those placards prooved SOME people are free to offend, and are actualy given a police escort to do it.

As with ALL demonstrations, we were drilled during police training, "The police are not there to stop the demonstraters causing trouble, but to protect them from the crowd wishing to stop, or protest against, said demonstration".

SO, in Europe and the U.K the protesters have;

1) stopped these cartoons being published. Therefore stifling British "free speech".

2) demonstrated they are above the law, which the native population must abide by.

3) fulled by thier success, they are ALLREADY starting to lobby to be able to legaly have four wives, in U.K.

4) Ten pubs in Berlin have been closed down within the last two years because of local muslim groups complaining that alcohol sales in "their" area is offending them.
(Interstingly enough, every one of these pubs is now under muslim ownership, as kebab shops, or "Imbiss". And guess what? they ALL sell beers wines and spirits!)

5) Local rag heads being "offended" by "Mini skirts" or bikinis, was ONE of the reasons for the Sydney riots, I believe?
(In my opinion, no they were not offended. They were "trying thier muscle" to see how far "stupid whitey" was prepared to be pushed.)

6)As I have said on other threads here, my Wife has, on occassion had these a** holes demand that she cover her head..IN BERLIN! Where SHE was born and bred, as were 4 or 5 generations of her family, the others in West Prussia.

So when is Tony babes going to appear on the steps of 10 Downing street dressed as a raghead?, When is it going to be made compulsory for all women to wear sacks over there head? (Although with Cherri Blair, THAT could be a good idea).

When is Angela Merkel going to open the Reichstag in Arabic?

I can not remember when, but a couple of months back I joked on the Fundie thread, about them dressing in sacks and going around in white peugot station wagons raiding houses to make sure they had a bible.

I think this may well be very much closer than you think in U.K. Only it will be a koran.

This is all fuel for those that see Irving as a hero. I.E the nazi types.

Blair has suspended local elections in U.K, due next year. Why? Because he fears the backlash against what is happening with the muslims in U.K, and finding the neo nazis gaining seats left right and center?

In Denmark and Norway, the home grown neo nazis, have, since these demonstrations increased membership by 150%. THAT is NOT including those that would not join the boy scouts, let alone a political party. BUT the estimated vote increase FOR these groups, at present, would give them thier first seats in National parliament! Germany is lower, but similar. As are France and Holland.

[Kelreth]

I doubt any one will ever make sense of the peopel that can riot and be protected. Then again I will never for the life of me why goverments protect such crazy groups.

I am personally waiting to see what the rest of the world's response will be to some of the cartoons muslims have made in "vengance" for the mohammad cartoons.

Hilter and the jewish girl whos diary everyone loves, in bed. And they say its the same thing............

Dont you love how Isreal is thrown into every fricking little arguement? I mean seriously, maybe Isreal should just wipe out all of the other Middle Eastern countries just to alleviate their growing paranoia of such a thing. Just like how the US and allies should take over the Middle East kill all the people and take the oil. Just to alleviate their growing paranoia of such an event occuring. And then no one can complain can they?

[Ragnar]

I am personally waiting to see what the rest of the world's response will be to some of the cartoons muslims have made in "vengance" for the mohammad cartoons.

The rest of the world will do nothing. We are not a shower of backward tribesmen, as those that riot over line rawings are. There are some sensible ones, I know quite a few of them here and in U.K, it's just that THEY do not make the news. I.e, they are not oput rioting like thier peasent brethren.

Hilter and the jewish girl whos diary everyone loves, in bed. And they say its the same thing............

Anne Frank. Which shows my point entirely. NOT all the Middle East are ignorant tribesmen. Have the Israelis rioted?, Have they burned Arab Embassys?

They have even MORE right to do so, than the Arabs. Anne Frank was a REAL person, as was Hitler. Part of Anne Franks family are still alive, her Sister I believe is one. Who has more right to riot than them? Do they? No, they are civilised.

They COULD sue for libel. BUT the Government dare not allow it. THAT is exactly what the rioting ragheads are waiting for. So they can turn around and scream about how "Free speech" is only meant for the West.

Actualy, if you think about it, this imrisonment of Irving, is a Gods send to the West. Cus NOW, we have an example of how Western law works.
"We DO imprisson people for "Holocaust" crimes. Look heres one right here!"

They simply can not grasp the difference between "Reality" and "real people", and some figure made up for a cartoon strip 1000 years ago, which got out of hand.

IF the cartoons from Holland had have been pedicting the sauid family, ot Marwaka of Egypt, then the cartoonist COULD have been prosecuted, because it is an offence to insult the head of a foriegn state.

You can not bring a fictional, drug induced imaginary, character, under the laws of libel.