Saddam & the Death Penalty

[runewulf]

Makes sense, but I kinda like the whole brainwashing him so that he has to clean up his own mess idea, heh heh.



Wassail

[Librarian]

Makes sense, but I kinda like the whole brainwashing him so that he has to clean up his own mess idea, heh heh.



Wassail

I only have one answer to all of the ideas about revenge and violence against another. Choose which one applies to you:



1. The three-fold law.

2. What goes around, comes around.



I am truly having a difficult time believing some of the outright brutality some of you are considering. Every one of the ideas put forth would be a violation of human rights, international law, and plain decency. I am simply ashamed to have read such vile things.



Whatever he did, he is human and deserves a trial. The outcome is pretty well assured, but he still deserves that. Those of the so-called civilized world who would claim to be morally superior, should try to act like it!



The Islamic world already has a view of the west as decadent, imperialistic, and abusive of human rights. Such behaviour would only strengthen their case, and I would have to agree with them.

[seasant]

Maybe we could sort of combine the two ideas: "clean" his brain up with brainwashing; "feed" him new ideas; "house" him in a 10x10 cell (maybe with a Zionist!); "make" healthy and whole - heehee



Have him then tell his followers to back off and allow the new regime to operate fully, then have him stand trial by the new gov't. If, for some odd reason, the Iraqis decided to set him free, then the deal's off and he goes to Kuwait to stand trial, and if that fails, he's back to point A.



Aint compromise wonderful

[Librarian]

Maybe we could sort of combine the two ideas: "clean" his brain up with brainwashing; "feed" him new ideas; "house" him in a 10x10 cell (maybe with a Zionist!); "make" healthy and whole - heehee



Have him then tell his followers to back off and allow the new regime to operate fully, then have him stand trial by the new gov't. If, for some odd reason, the Iraqis decided to set him free, then the deal's off and he goes to Kuwait to stand trial, and if that fails, he's back to point A.



Aint compromise wonderful

Have you considered reading your own tagline:



Teach the lessons you have learned. Your understanding has been given, not only for yourself, but to guide a sore and tired world to a place of rest in a new consciousness.

[seasant]

Here I thought I was just being clever, and even had fun adding the smilies, apparently the humor was lost in the ethers.



If you would like seriousness on this issue - my true feelings are that he will get his just desserts, karma my dear, there simply is no escaping it, however there is a way to lessen the load, but it's doubtful if Hussein would become initiated in this lifetime.

[Librarian]

Here I thought I was just being clever, and even had fun adding the smilies, apparently the humor was lost in the ethers.

When using sarcasm, I've often seen others use the <sarcasm></sarcasm> tags.



Having thought about it some more, here are a few other thoughts:



1. You only deserve the rights and freedoms you would grant others.



2. If you torture Saddam, how can you be any better than him? Simply because you only tortured one rather than thousands? <sarcasm>I'm sure the goddess would take that into account.</sarcasm>



3. Benjamin Franklin said it well: Those who would give up freedom for security deserve neither.



4. Maybe you'll recognize these speakers and how and why they died:



I have a dream that one day the state of Alabama, whose governor's lips are presently dripping with the words of interposition and nullification, will be transformed into a situation where little black boys and black girls will be able to join hands with little white boys and white girls and walk together as sisters and brothers. -- Martin Luther King



"All free men, wherever they may live, are citizens of Berlin, and, therefore, as a free man, I take pride in the words "Ich bin ein Berliner!"...What is true of this city is true of Germany--real, lasting peace in Europe can never be assured as long as one German out of four is denied the elementary right of free men, and that is to make a free choice. In 18 years of peace and good faith, this generation of Germans has earned the right to be free, including the right to unite their families and their nation in lasting peace, with good will to all people...Freedom is indivisible, and when one man is enslaved, all are not free. -- John Fitzgerald Kennedy



The brave men, living and dead who struggled here have consecrated it far above our poor power to add or detract. The world will little note nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here. It is for us the living rather to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us--that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion--that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain, that this nation under God shall have a new birth of freedom, and that government of the people, by the people, for the people shall not perish from the earth. -- Abraham Lincoln

[davisherm]

Iraq is an Islamic nation. He committed brutal murder against his own people. THEY will try him.



by Islamic law he can be put to death, and it will be by the sword.



I would not object if this should happen.

[runewulf]

I can agree with that. Personally, I am not real big on torture, especially when it's pretty much pointless. Just try him, leave him impotent (metaphorically) and give him to his own people to deal with. That really is all it should take, you know?



Wassail

[seasant]

Here's the deal Librarian,:

1. I would grant others all rights and freedoms, as I would deserve that, however, if at some time I lost my soul or mind and started murdering millions, I would then deserve to be incarcerated, which I would want someone to do so that my karmic load didn't increase to such a degree.



2. If I were planning to send a bomb to some place and murder massive abouts of non-combatants, I would deserve to be tortured for this sort of information in oder that the bomb never got set off. If I had no intention of doing such a dasdardly deed and it was my job to make sure no such deed came to fruition, and I had a major player with information that could stop such a deed, and if torture was the only way to get that information out, I would torture, since saving massive amounts of "innocents" is more important than saving the one person who is responsible for the atrocious behavior. It would be my duty to do so as a human being.



3. Ben Franklin, one of my personal favorites, did not mean giving up national security, he meant the security of a toasty fire and home, not whether or not your library records could be checked.



4. I will go into this later as I have no time now to read or address them. However, I see you also have a quote from Lincoln, and I was wondering if you knew that he wanted to repatriate the slaves after the war was over, but was assassinated before it could happen. However, no doubt the slaves are quite grateful that never happened since the conditions in Africa a apalling.



Now, we can debate these sorts of things ad nauseum, or we can lighten up.

[Wbdsgnr1]

I have been reading this thread for quite a while and I didn't say anything in hopes that you all were being sarcastic but i totally agree with Librarian.



I am not a huge fan of Saddam myself, I believe he was a bad ruler and did horrible things to the people over there and he kept all the money for himself but on the other hand he has never done anything ot us americans and as peaceful pagans I cannot beleive the things suggested here.



And as to the new person seasant, be careful, you are new and we welcome you with open arms to everyones opinion but what Librarian says goes around here and we should end this arguement right now.



Thank you

blessed be

[runewulf]

Wbds,



Not all pagans are pacifists, dear. I don't believe in wrongful force, but I do believe in justice. Whatever form it takes, be it incarceration, execution, whatever.



And Librarian has a good point. If we gave him back to his people with no consequences against whatever action they did, it would be a death sentence.



Dude needs to be punished serverely. Our pagan ancestors, no matter what some folks want to say or believe, would not have allowed this kind of thing to happen to them by an outside force, more less by one within. A king who misruled in such a way would not have been a king for too terribly long.



Wassail

[Firelord]

I say we give him full rights as a US citizen and let him live a normal life here. A starting over, so to speak. That is, if anyone would treat him fairly here, so that's out of the question. If only he could be put somewhere where no one knew him, so he could get a clean slate and live a full life. I feel bad for him, in all actuality. No matter where he goes, people will spit on him and call him names, and not only that, but they would want far more in their subconscious minds. Most would want to cut him and tear at him, and make him bleed, and make him feel pain.



Is anyone still sane enough to let another man live fairly?



Sure, what he did isn't right, but I'm a little bit worried about the country now. Who is really in rule? Does Bush get power over them now? Do our oil companies get to take over their oil? Are they really FREE? Did they want this (I know at the time it happened, it was NO)? What impact will this have on the world? Will Israel attempt to take this country over, now that they are weak enough for it to happen? Why have the Bushes been fighting for Israel? Why are we allied with such power-hungry empire-building, selfish, angry, hateful people as those found in Israel?



Gives everyone a little bit to think about. I feel the world may be in danger... perhaps not even in this lifetime, but the world to follow may not be a happy place...



Blessed Be!

[runewulf]

Giving him a clean slate amounts to saying "Killing people without cause is ok. Harming, starving and torturing innocents is cool. We won't punish you for it." That's something I can't agree with. People have to take the responsibility for their actions.



Wassail

[Librarian]

Sure, what he did isn't right, but I'm a little bit worried about the country now. Who is really in rule? Does Bush get power over them now? Do our oil companies get to take over their oil? Are they really FREE?

They're a colony. Think of what has happened to every other colony in history. Consider especially what the people back home are told about what was happening in the colony.



Colonial powers have ruled:

A. Well and a short time

B. Badly and for a long a time

Did they want this (I know at the time it happened, it was NO)?

Get rid of Saddam - yes.

Become a colony with a government and constitution imposed upon them - no. We'll hear more about this in the next few years...

What impact will this have on the world? Will Israel attempt to take this country over, now that they are weak enough for it to happen? Why have the Bushes been fighting for Israel? Why are we allied with such power-hungry empire-building, selfish, angry, hateful people as those found in Israel?

Money, power, oil. The usual suspects for the usual reasons.

Gives everyone a little bit to think about. I feel the world may be in danger... perhaps not even in this lifetime, but the world to follow may not be a happy place...

It isn't a very happy place now for the majority of people in the world. It's bound to get uglier, it just depends upon on who, where, and and how poerful you are.



Yes, that's a very cynical view, but consider:



The economically available oil is running out. Production has been going down for the last three years by all accounts.



Fresh water is also unavvailable to most.



The population is growing.



More countries are getiing nuclear weapons, courtesy of the major nuclear powers, including the US.



The US is the worlds number one small arms supplier, much to it's own long-term detriment.



Depressed yet?

[runewulf]

Unfortunately, I agree with that cynicism Librarian. Logically, it appears what you've laid out at the end there is pretty much dead on. It sucks, but it is the current truth of the matter.



Wassail