War!

[seasant]

Firelord: You mentioned the Illuminati. I am well aware of them. Get the video "Matrix of Power," it deals with this in detail - a must see. Your local library should be able to get a copy of it for you. Few people know of this and many dismiss it as conspiracy - we know better.



I'd like to add another take on the reason/s for the Iraq war. Sure, part of it is probably for oil, part for WMD, but one of the major reasons is for the Arab nations themselves, to protect them, especially Kuwait and Saudi Arabia, from Hussein's ambition of being emperor/head of an Arab empire. He is of a different Muslim faction and has been known to annihilate other Muslims, that worries many other Muslims. This sort of fighting between two different groups of Muslims is happening in Afghanistan right now. Another major reason for the Iraq war is to protect Israel, do her bidding. Our country is heavily run by Jews. Kerry is Jewish, formerly Kohn. Dean is married to a Jew. Clark is a Jew. Lieberman is a Jew. Al Qaeda does not like Jews. Three times as many Palestinians have died so far as that of Israelis, but our primarily Jewish-owned media reports primarily, almost solely, the killings perpetrated by the Palestinians. We would be safer if we quit funding Israel.



Do you suppose Afghanistan has quit supplying the world with 95% of its heroin. Imagine the money being made. Remember how Clinton pardoned Mark Rich, the notorious drug trafficer. Clinton gets his mega bucks via drugs and selling our nuclear secrets to the communist Chinese, plus giving them our ports, like Long Beach, CA, for COSCO Shipping, the giant Chinese shipping company with a strong right hand in the Chinese military. This was done during the Lewinsky rouse that kept most Americans glued to the tv - nothing like a sex scandal to keep their minds occupied! I would venture to guess that he and she never even inhaled that cigar! Carter gave Panama the canal we paid for. The canal is now being run by Chinese. Panama is desperate for the US to return. Thousands of Chinese have moved to that small country. I have an idea of what I believe they are up to...



Clinton is also responsible for NAFTA. I voted for Perot who was against it. Without NAFTA, corporations could not outsource labor for cheap. Contrary to another poster's belief, those countries are quite grateful to be employed by American companies, which typically pay more than the local going rate. As far as the pollution, etc. goes, we have sent chemicals to foreign countries for years, like pesticides provided by Monsanto that are banned in the USA. However, they are exported to countries like Chile where they are used on grapes and such which are then sent back here! There is no end to what greed creates.



Sorry, didn't mean to get off on a tangent.

[runewulf]

Personally, I agree with a bit of what you have said, especially the outsourcing of work for cheaper pay. Although, luckilly, some companies are now realizing that this isn't always a good idea, both economically as well as quality wise. I just hope that more of the companies realize it in the future. If not, my wife may have to bite the bullet and I may have to take one of the jobs I was offered from europe. Not that I would mind too much, but she doesn't want to move across the atlantic from her family.



It is getting ridiculous though, all the exporting of jobs from the US to other countries. You would think companies would have wised up after what happened to early corps who did this. Can anyone say "Zenith" *splat*, heh heh.



Wassail

[searchlight]

i went to this war, so this is personal for me. those of us who have ever been in the military(i got out and i am planning on going back in !) know that our opinions on this dont really matter. unfortunatley, the average citizen's opinion doesnt matter much either. we elect leadership to make these decisions for us. i feel the world is a better place for not having a maniac like saddam in charge of anything bigger than a hotdog stand. i didnt read all the posts on this topic, there were too many and i had not enough time. when you are the world superpower, you get to tell other countries to put down there weapons, that is the good part about being the big dog. we can basicly impose our will on the rest of the world, whether they like it or not. now, if this is riht or wrong, who knows. the bigger, stronger, smarter entity always wins, it is just the way it is.

[runewulf]

Depends on where you draw the line, truth be told. I mean, eveyone should have certain rights, but when you start taking away rights without just cause (and I don't mean justification here, as if you are a little on the smart side and take enough time, you can "justify" darn near anything, no matter how convoluted the logic), then you are violating basic morality.



If it's ok for Tom to have a car, but you say Joe can't because you don't like his god or some such, well, that's just wrong. Now, when we talke about biological or nuclear weapons, that's a whole nother story, so to speak.



Now we are talking about things that have absolutely no purpose but to destory, and not even in a healthly, burn the field or forest fire, kind of way, but in the "annihilate" others, and in the case of bio-war and nuclear fallout, in a hideous and painful way.



I think, no, I totally believe, that removing such things from play is the only intelligent move to make. There is the old saying that "an armed society is a polite society". This is total drek. Look at the states here. Any schmuk can go get a gun if they have even half a clue, heck, even a quarter of a clue. However, all these guns sure don't make people here politer. If anything, it's probably why we have one of the highest, and I believe that right now, we have THE highest, homicide rate of all first world countries. That's pretty sad, when you think about it.



So, yes, I am all for taking away the Weapons of Mass Destruction. Heck, personally, I think if there was a way to get all weapons that have no other real use than to kill a person (like hand guns, missle launchers, bio-weapons, nuclear, etc) away from everyone in the world who isn't part of a law enforcement agency (and even here there could be some serious reform) without missing any of them, we should do it. I have no problems with rifles and what not. They can be used for hunting, etc. as well as personal defense. However, it's kind of difficult to conceal a 3030 rifle when walking down a sidewalk. So, at least people are less likely to be toating one around and killing folks with it.



In the end, I think we have an obligation to work for the highest overall good, but with some kind of moral limits. Unfortunately, in a world which sways more and more towards amoral on a regular basis, it seems morality, real morality, is becoming less and less important to more and more people.



Well, I think I've "said" enough on this...



Wassail

[Firelord]

Runewolf, it's a little bit different with the guns.



By population there was a heck of a lot less crime in the wild west than now. When every man had a gun, no one would dare try crime too much. Not without an extremely large posse at least. Now, if we look at today no one would dare try something if everyone was packing heat. Let's see... walk into a convenience store... there's 15 people inside, about 20 outside pumping fuel and such, streets are packed, and you decide you're going to rob the place at gun point. Wow, 10 people inside pull guns on you from behind... Wrong to take the law into your own hands, but you're going to arrest 10 people for upholding the peace?



Now, if guns were cheaper and easier to get then they are, and allowed to be carried most places, more people would have them, and it would indeed be a safer place.



Also, I think it's wrong to say a certain country can't have nuclear weapons when we have more nuclear weapons than every other country on the world combined. And don't say we have them just for retaliation, or "we don't plan on using them". If we don't... then why, exactly, do they exist?



hmmm...

Blessed Be!

[morgana]

Personally, the thought of everyone having a gun is absolutely terrifying. I mean think of all the stupid people out there that you don't want operating anything more complicated than a pez dispenser let alone being allowed to own a deadly weapon! I shudder at the thought!

[runewulf]

I will leave the gun issue alone, as I have heard all the arguments from both sides. Guns are for wimps who can't handle themselves without them. Outlaw guns and bring back swords and see the level of violent crimes drop. Some of these punks see a few people get cut up and they are going to chill, big time.



As far as Nukes go, I don't think we should have them either. I think as long as they exist elsewhere, especially in hostile countries, we need the threat of them to ensure country x doesn't get a bee up it's deriere and shoot of their Nukes at us, but I also think that if everyone else diarmed, then we should as well.



There is no point in Nukes except massive destruction, on a devastating, wholesale level. I think they should all be trashed and let that be the end of it. The bloody things are going to cause some extreme problems at some point in the future if something isn't done. I don't know about you, but I don't want to have to see or experience a disaster that makes Chernobyl and Hiroshima look like a few little firecrackers went off in their area.



Wassail

[runewulf]

Morgana,



I tend to say those types have a technical limit rating of somewhere between a match and a toaster, heh heh. Gods know there are a lot of people who are either "technologically challenged" or just totally lacking in either logic skills or common sense, sometimes it seems both.



You're right though, seeing those types totting around a 9mm or .45 or some such is a scary thought.



hmmm.... I wonder how many of them would do a Barney Feif and shoot themselves in the foot (or elsewhere)



Wassail

[morgana]

Lol, the scary thing is, I have a relative who did the same thing, except he shot himself in the foot w/a nailgun (and he's a carpenter)!!

[runewulf]

heh heh, yeah, but not all nailguns have safeties. Especially if it's set, manufactured or jury rigged for fast output. But that is kind of sad,



Wassail

[morgana]

From what I remember of the story, he was goofing around with it while drunk and that's how it happened. He's not the brightest crayon on the box, lets just say that.

[Firelord]

Runewolf, I agree with you completely... but can we really see anyone giving up their gun? Especially those guys that want to act all tough... but are crying on the inside?



Now, we have a laser that can detect and shoot down long distance shells, such as most forms of nukes well out of the atmosphere... the thing that has been claimed to be inspired by Tesla's Death Ray. Of course, this doesn't yet stop a plane from dropping one of those old types of Nukes (reality has it that the planes never make it out, either....). But I don't really see someone flying a plane in and dropping a nuke out of it... of course, our air can't be all too safe if jet liners go off course enough to fly into the twin towers without air traffic control knowing about them well into advance! People not doing their jobs again, of course....



Anyhow, we're close to being safe enough we won't need any nukes to deter other countries... we already have better things...



Blessed Be!

[runewulf]

Morgana,



Yep, that "crayon" seems to be a bit on the "dull" side, lol. Some people should NOT be allowed to use power-tools, heh heh



FireLord,



Yep, we can zap those buggers while their in space, but here are a few things about that.



1) What if someone launches 200 of those buggers at us? even if 95% are duds, a couple of live ones are likely to get through.



2) Atomospheric Intercontinental Balistic Missiles with Nuke Payload or Sub Launches Nukes.



3) And there are always other delivery methods which could be established if someone put enough effort into it. A Nuke in one of those 10 ton Lobster bins, or in one of those Sushi bins of the same size, or in an oil tanker, etc. etc.



In the end, if there are nukes and someone is bound and determined to use on or more against us, they can find a way. We may not get blindsided if they try it twice, but the first time, it's likely we would get caught in a bad way.



Wassail