The Sex Industry & Paganism

[Wbdsgnr1]

I dont think I have ever flirted or been "female" to get ahead.
Not that I can think of at least, but I might ask Firelord later.

Personally I dont think I could pull it off because of my low self esteem about my looks. I'm taller then most guys.......... Ok Im taller then most of the population of the world that I know. Im taller than Firelord, and sometimes that still bothers me. And Im skinny and really really blinding white (no tan) and I just dont like the way my face looks, period. Never have and probably never will.

And poor Serenity, shes only 20 months old and sometimes people mistake her for a 3 year old shes so tall already and it will be more accentuated when she gets out of the cast and is walking around. But shes utterly beautiful, and I know Im biased but I hear it all the time from family, friends, and complete strangers every day.

This has been a very interesting conversation to read tho. Thank you.
BB

[FyreGarnet]

Ok, so I'm getting to this pretty late, but still thought I'd chime in. I believe that the sex industry is one of the most degrading ones we have. Legalization would be a good thing in this country, but I'm not sure if it would help entirely. It would definitely be nice to think so.

I do know that pole dancing and belly dancing on your own can be very empowering, as I've done the belly dancing. My fiance loves to watch me belly dance for other reasons than my boobs jiggling and my bootie wiggling. He likes to see me happy and having fun. I dance with a few girls here, and we just go and do whatever we want, no rules attached. That's what makes it so much fun.

I think that by being paid to do anything like that can still be empowering in the sense that you are good enough that someone would spend money on you. Maybe that's how some people see it, or fool themselves. However, if that is the only reason for you doing it, then you should probably look into doing something else if at all possible.

Finally, I have used my femininity to get my way, but not in anything ever major such as tickets or with the boss. It's usually more playful with a coworker or even my fiance. "Hey, can you do this with me or for me?" Use the innocent eye look and pout the lips a little. This has only been a recent thing I've learned though, as, like many have already said, I had such low self esteem for so long, that it never even occurred to me. Now I just kinda play with it.

My mom has used me and my sisters to do things like get people to help us at a department store though. She is a bit overweight and wears sweats all the time, so no wonder she feels bad about herself. But she will send us to get someone because we "are pretty and they would be more likely to help" us. However, when I go to get help, I'm not just playing the pretty card. I'm assertive, and know what I want and act like they had better help me or lose the sale. And unless the person is in a bad mood, they don't want to lose the sale, and I'm very capable of walking out.

Not sure if this all makes sense. But I have a tad bit of time on my hands currently and am trying to get to as many of these as I can.

FyreGarnet

[Scathach]

Sorry to bump this, but I just HAD to comment. I'm quite convinced that prostitution killed my partner. Yes, I know that I've said that she died of cancer, and she did, but she died of a cancer that startled the doctors because she got it so young. Her ex-husband had turned her out as a prostitute on the street and tortured her so horribly that I'm convinced that the trauma that she had got her sick. She was terrified all the time, and her fear of him ate away at her. She was one of the most beautiful souls that I had ever known, but she just couldn't get passed it. She saw him as a demon, LITERALLY. She believed that he couldn't be killed. He told her that even if she left, even if he died, he'd get her from beyond the grave. I offered to do healing work for her to get him out of her, but she wouldn't let me. She was scared that the part of him inside her, if I tried to remove it, would kill her

There was a time when info got to us that he had found out where we lived. Claudia fled to safety and I stayed behind. Apparently, he was royally upset that he had lost his "property", and was after her. I was told by her that he would just kick the door in and come straight in. This made me happy, as it legally allowed me to use lethal force.

I loaded the place with deadly weapons, (I'm skilled in a number of martial arts), and waited for him. I told people, "If this roach comes into the motel, he ain't checkin out!" He never came.

Is prostitution sacred? NO!

When Claudia died, tons came to her funeral, as she was a wonderful person, but very few knew about the hell that she had suffered.

There's only one thing that will change the deplorable situation with prositution. It will be when we as a SPECIES evolve to the point where buying and selling women is UNTHINKABLE!

[Dark Waters]

Sorrowful to say that the evil do not just traffic in women. People of all kinds are bought and sold where they can get away with it. And while karma will eventually settle retribution upon them, it works far to slow for my preferences. I have never met people like those but should I ever, I do believe I could teach them the proper meaning of fear.

[Sìle]

So...I suppose what I'm asking is whether it truly is against Wicca or any other nature-based faith to be involved in a sexually expressive business. We mostly agree that sex is natural, wonderful and should be enjoyable...however how many of us would agree that lap dancing, pole dancing or sleeping with perfect strangers, often for money, is natural and wonderful too when we know full well that a lot of people participating in it are lacking self-esteem when they begin and are often exploited?

To me, that sounds like a generalisation. Some people enjoy sex and why not get paid for what you enjoy? Others are sexually aggressive and rather than being exploited they exploit those who pay for sex by taking their money. I have no issue with sexual/sensual entertainment clubs, i.e. lap dancing and pole dancing either and I have worked in the adult entertainment industry and, yes, there are some that really should be in therapy not the industry, but others are amazingly well-balanced.

I know very little of the social mores of Wicca and nothing about nature-worshipping pagan paths, but I believe sex can be both sacred and profane. The High Kings of Ireland had to undertake a sexual act during their coronation, as did the Queens. And then there is Beltane ... Sexual prowess was very important to the Celts.

I found this, which might be of interest:

A lot of these posts seem to centre on what religious views did the Celts hold regarding sex - leading naturally to what did the druids think - and what were the marriage (.i. handfasting) customs. There is actually a LOT of sex in the early literture and we have an entire law tract on early Gaelic marriage (Cain Lanamna - my apologies for lacking fada marks).

In the narrative traditions I think 'Second Battle of Moytura' is pretty indicative of sexual mores - a total stranger solicits a princess, she likes him and, after ensuring that the proper familial obligations will be fulfilled, gets it on with him. Only after does she ask his name and a surety for the offspring. Any number of tales will show the lords taking 'one-off' lovers, with varying reactions from their wife/wives/concubines. 'Fingal Ronain' (Ronan's Kinslaying) is a cautionary tale about taking a wife too young, but could have some Christian influence despite the text's age. Another good one is 'Loinges mac Uisienn' or 'Deirdre', where Conchobar raises a beuatiful girl to be his sex-slave, only to have her run off with a young man. When she, after much betrayal, violence and bloodshed, is back with him, he tells her that he plans on sharing him with his freind - at which point she commits suicide.

If this suicide seems like Christian prudery, consider the Classical story that tells of a Celtic woman captured by a roman soldier. He raped her (as was customary) and then ransomed her back. With the deal done, he made some snide comment to her by way of goodbye, and her reply was to grab her husband's axe and bury it in the soldier's head. When the husband made a comment that her reaction was a little extreme, she replied that it was better that only one man alive should have lain with her.

Then again, most classical authors agree that Celts, particularly the men, were promiscuous AND there is good indication that same-sex ... er ... sex, was fairly common. One story tells of how an eighth century king showed his wisdom by deducing the father of a child, born of a woman who hadn't lain with man for some two years previous. His answer was that she had had sex with a woman who had just had sex with a man and his semen actually transferred from one vagina to the other - oh those wild Celts!

But what does all this say about Celtc sexuality? I think the Celts were right into their sex, but probably didn't have much in the way of systemization or 'sex-magic'. The act itself was magic enough (take a look at the sovereignty-goddess tradition). The laws seem to assume that sex will happen everywhere and at all times, so the legal question is then 'who supports the children'.

Link: Tribe.

[Max]

I'm glad you've brought this back to attention Sìle.
I firstly would like to say, that I in no way show any sympathy for the illegal, exploitative black market. I hate it when people hold power over someone else and I think governments can go further to stamp this out. However, I would personally say that I have no problem with the legal sex industry, particularly as I too work in a section of the adult entertainment industry. I agree with Willow that it should be legalised or regularised.

As far as whether it coincides with Paganism or not? I think you can argue either way if you have that argumentative sort of mind! (As you've just proved with the Celts discussion!)

I think it's great to discuss on the boards in relative privacy, but I am always aware that I can be pushing my own brand of morality on other people when I discuss this in RL. I think women's bodies have been looked at, analysed, and moralised upon for too many centuries. How many towns would shout 'nimby!' if a strip club of women opened in the town centre, but titter if only men stripped there? There are so many double standards. Why is it okay to be a high class escort but not to work in a brothel? It's okay to do burlesque but not lap dancing. And I know someone on the board will jump in and point out the difference in 'intent' and 'tone' but call a spade a spade. Frankly, I think 'morality' lies in the eye of the person watching. We often put the blame on the women performing and forget about the people watching. I'd like to point out a very interesting essay by Roland Barthes in his selection Mythologies called 'Strip Tease' (p83-87), it shows how there are a series of pretences when you go to watch a show

Barthes: Woman is desexualised at the very moment when she is stripped naked

You're getting turned on by the fact she's so turned on by you she takes her clothes off, but she's not really turned on, so your erotic feelings are based on a pretence, and you know this deep down. This is the 'mythology'. I think the same could apply to porn.

It's interesting to reconcile being a feminist with working in an industry that supports sex work, but I stand by the idea: do what you want but deal with the consequences. And in the legal sex industry, these days women negotiate their contracts and know what they are getting into. And I too have met well-adjusted women who have worked as dancers.

In summary, after this long rant, let people do what they want as long as they don't hurt anyone, and be careful about a false charge of 'immorality'. It's good to discuss issue like this
*thoughts end for now*

http://www.scribd.com/doc/4612523/Mythologies-by-Roland-Barthes-as-selected-and-translated-by-Annette-Lavers

[Sìle]

As far as whether it coincides with Paganism or not? I think you can argue either way if you have that argumentative sort of mind! (As you've just proved with the Celts discussion!)

I thinks its impossible to speak of a singular stance in relation to pagan morality, as there are so many different groups that fall under the pagan umbrella as to make it impossible to have a "one size fits all" morality. Hellenists will have a different view to heathens, druids different views from shinto ... and so on.