Religious Indifference

[Arcanum Owl]

(Warning the rusty cogs have begun to turn and are in need of a tune up, beware oyu have been forewarned)

Hmmm it occured to me of late, if you look at the Jewish doctrine (which I haven't read) along with the original belief of the "Messiah" doesn't that technically mean the current Jewish population missed the point? Didn't they miss the Messiah? The whole thing about the Messiah leading them to their new land, it never occured to them that the new land really meant every where and that the concept of Christianity was really just a tool for wide spread religious faith. After all the principals of it where based essentially on worldly ideals. Love thy neighbour, absolute brillance, for through love you come to an understanding on the individual and what you understand you cannot hate.

Back to the Jewish, then after WWII, after the Holocaust, they proceed to make a huge hoohar about Ragnars' descendants, and a few of mine and White Harmony's, and demand that they need a country of their own. Hmmm where shall we go. Of course back home to Jerusalem, who cares if they're are currently people there we'll just proceed to do what the Nazi's did to us (Nazi's not Germans big distinction & here's and even bigger one. Argentina would be closer to Nazi than any German would. Begin flamin') We certainly learnt own lesson.

Of course then there are those who didn't wish to defile Christ's name, or didn't know who he was and weren't content that their Messiah didn't have any affect on them. Hmmm of what should we do.... Of Mohammad what should we do. See that cave, go in there and see if you can find us something to eat I'm hungry.. (Some time later) I can't eat this! What's an Arch-Angel?

(Rolls them all into alittle ball, drops them into a drawer, then proceeds to bury the chest of drawers) No good came out of this....... Or did it? Man does the universe have a sense of humour, or what!

[Kelreth]

Mohamad used story of arch-angel so his story had lagitamancy. He still had to beat the crud out of every other islamic group before they consented to his rule. And I mean his Mohammad, not Allah(english = God). Whom he made up so people would beleive in him (Mohamad)

[Rain ForestMoon]

.......along with the original belief of the "Messiah" doesn't that technically mean the current Jewish population missed the point? Didn't they miss the Messiah?.......

Well, it seems that your view is very much influenced by Xtian thinking:

Xtians claim that Jesus was the Messiah.

Jews know that Jesus did not meet any of the criteria that were laid down in Jewish scripture, as to who and what the Messiah would be. Therefore, in Jewish thinking they certainly did not miss the Messiah. Jesus simply did not measure up.

Of course, the Xtians are claiming that Jesus was the Messiah, because without that, their whole belief system crumbles. (BTW, Jewish scripture certainly does not describe the Messiah as being the Son of God....)


Also, you seem to get Moshe (or Moses, as the Xtians call him) confused with the Messiah.
Moshe is said to have led the Jews to the Promised Land. The Messiah was going to free them from opression by their foreign rulers.


As an interesting aside, the Jews thought, shortly before the year 70, that the Messiah had arrived (his name just now slips my mind). This caused them to rise up against the Romans, and we all know that it did not go well for the Jews. (Therefore no Messiah then, either....)



Of Mohammed I know very little, but offer this thought:


Judaism, Xtianity and Islam are not so much different religions, but variations on the same theme. After all, they all worship the same God (The God of Abraham, for want of a better classification.)

Xtian and Islamic fundamentalists have very similar annoying traits, worst of all being that they want EVERYBODY to be exactly like them.
Zionism is much better in this particular regard, but the most annoying thing about them is that they expect to get unfair advantage, at the expense of everybody else (but as "God's chosen people, they believe that they are entitled to it, of course).


Blessings

[Kelreth]

islam seems to be worse from what i have read.
their holy book says to kill every one that doesnt follow their religion and then to have their way with the captured women
i dont remember the xian bible to ever say something like that.



messiah means annointed one. the king of isreal was annointed at his corination ceremoney.

all jesus really did was fullfil some prophecies intentionally so people would think he was the son of a god. some people say he didnt die on the cross, which would cause a lot of chaos in the xian system if it was true.

[Arcanum Owl]

In effect I do believe Jesus was the Jews messiah. This is not because of any particular belief system I am fond of or dislike. It just seems to fit the profile. The Jewish people/state may say that Jesus was not their messiah, I can also call an apple an orange, it doesn't make it more citrus.

I don't believe I've got Moshe/Moses confused with the Messiah, instead I refer you to Jewish occupation of Israel and also the supposed Messiah whose name is unknown that you mentioned. What was he trying to do? What I'm trying to get at was the Jewish Messiah, be it unnamed guy/Jesus/dinky the purple whale, was/is supposed to have a purpose for the Jewish people. I've always saw this purpose as a broading of the mind or redefining of set constrainst. Be that religious/social/ruling/or demographic.

In turns of Islam, I had one very knowledgeful man describe the Islamic faith origins as Christian Jews. Had me laughing so hard.

I've gotta get my hand on a copy of the Tora, though I think the only autentic ones would be in ancient Hebrua and I don't have the time to learn a new language. I have enough troubles with my first one.

[Paganlight]

"I can also call an apple an orange, it doesn't make it more citrus."

Heh, like it! May pinch that quote.

Hmm, I have to say that this is a very interesting thread. Certaintly made me think.

[Ragnar]

Hmmm it occured to me of late, if you look at the Jewish doctrine (which I haven't read) along with the original belief of the "Messiah" doesn't that technically mean the current Jewish population missed the point? Didn't they miss the Messiah?

The question arises. IF some one turned up and said "HEY, I'm the messiah", Like jesus, and nohamhead did. Would they not immediately be thrown into a small room with peculiarly thick and spongey wall paper?

[white_harmony]

It has been noted that Jesus (in this context) was infact a Master sent to guide us and show us that we can be more than we really are, and to show us a better way to live.

The question arises. IF some one turned up and said "HEY, I'm the messiah", Like jesus, and nohamhead did. Would they not immediately be thrown into a small room with peculiarly thick and spongey wall paper?

In Jesus' case, he was basically killed you may as well say. Everytime someone of a higher consciousness has been sent to mankind to show them again and again we can better ourselves not through physical possessions and means, but within ourselves, they are ridiculed and slaughtered. Man is afraid of what he doesn't understand, and ultimately what he fears to be different.

... Completely off topic, but your comment kinda had me spewing nonsense. Sorry if it makes no sense!

[Ragnar]

It has been noted that Jesus (in this context) was infact a Master sent to guide us and show us that we can be more than we really are, and to show us a better way to live.

One god, turn the other cheek, no sacrifice, not suffering witches to live, forgiving enemy's, total subservience to his god, commandments, no this, no that, no the other, demonisation of our Gods, etc etc.

What better way of life? Sonds like slavery to me.

What is the difference between that and what the nazi's did in Poland, Chzekoslovakia, and Russia?

[Rain ForestMoon]

In effect I do believe Jesus was the Jews messiah. This is not because of any particular belief system I am fond of or dislike. It just seems to fit the profile. The Jewish people/state may say that Jesus was not their messiah, I can also call an apple an orange, it doesn't make it more citrus.......

I wonder if it would not be better to let the Jews themselves decide who is THEIR Messiah?

Also: would not your belief that Jesus was the Jews Messiah put you very firmly into the Xtian camp?

I must confess to being somewhat confused......

Blessings

[Ragnar]

Back to the Jewish, then after WWII, after the Holocaust, they proceed to make a huge hoohar about Ragnars' descendants,

Me? I have no descendants. Please explain.

"In effect I do believe Jesus was the Jews messiah."

Hmm. Rain ForestMoon kind of, got there first.

But is that not a bit like the christians accusing us of worshiping "satan"?

Basicaly, if one is not OF a belief, then, unless aspects of that belief effect US (christian nazi's attacking us, for example), we have no right sticking our noses in.

[white_harmony]

What better way of life? Sonds like slavery to me.

That is looking at it in a completely RELIGIOUS context, not a SPIRITUAL context. The way to better ourselves, and hence our life is by changing the way we think and actually being the master of our own realities. Doing what we want when we want how we want, because thats just how we want it. We wont need the sufference of "religious indifference" to carry out our days, nor have society dictate to us our every deed just before we go and do it. Life will be what it was meant to be - ours, so individually ours because no one else can ever be the same as any of us. And none of this is meant to be achieved in a materialistic, completely physical way, it is a spiritual learning.

Might I lead you towards http://www.whatthebleep.com/scientists/ and scroll down until you see Dr. Joseph Dispenza. Somewhere else in this site you will also find his teacher, Ramtha (who is undoubtedly awesome). Joe actually "creates his day", he creates his own reality.

[Arcanum Owl]

WOW!

Of the 3 lessons one could possibly gain from the Christian Negetive influencing of the world is as follows;

1. How to negitively influence the world (be it religious or otherwise).
2. Never influence/effect/or attempt to improve anything or anyone.
3. Positively influence all to the better-ment of themselves.

So sad to see some have chosen #2.

[Willow]

I know I am a little late.

As an interesting aside, the Jews thought, shortly before the year 70, that the Messiah had arrived (his name just now slips my mind). This caused them to rise up against the Romans, and we all know that it did not go well for the Jews. (Therefore no Messiah then, either....)

Rain forest, you weren't thinking of Maccabees were you, he was quite a bit earlier (Hanukkah celebration is based on his revolt). 70 AD is when the second temple was destroyed. I know that was in a revolt bu wasn't it from a leader of the zealots and the Romans were crushing the rebellion?

[Rain ForestMoon]

I know I am a little late.

Rain forest, you weren't thinking of Maccabees were you, he was quite a bit earlier (Hanukkah celebration is based on his revolt). 70 AD is when the second temple was destroyed. I know that was in a revolt bu wasn't it from a leader of the zealots and the Romans were crushing the rebellion?

Thanks for that, Willow. I knew that you'd have some knowledge in this area.

The person I was thinking of was (and I've just looked it up again and quote some of it below) Shimeon ben Kosiba, known as Bar Kochba. But that was well after 70, as I now see:

".....Jews do not believe that Jesus was the moshiach. Assuming that he existed, and assuming that the Christian scriptures are accurate in describing him (both matters that are debatable), he simply did not fulfill the mission of the moshiach as it is described in the biblical passages cited above. Jesus did not do any of the things that the scriptures said the messiah would do.

On the contrary, another Jew born about a century later came far closer to fulfilling the messianic ideal than Jesus did. His name was Shimeon ben Kosiba, known as Bar Kochba (son of a star), and he was a charismatic, brilliant, but brutal warlord. Rabbi Akiba, one of the greatest scholars in Jewish history, believed that Bar Kochba was the moshiach. Bar Kochba fought a war against the Roman Empire, catching the Tenth Legion by surprise and retaking Jerusalem. He resumed sacrifices at the site of the Temple and made plans to rebuild the Temple. He established a provisional government and began to issue coins in its name. This is what the Jewish people were looking for in a moshiach; Jesus clearly does not fit into this mold. Ultimately, however, the Roman Empire crushed his revolt and killed Bar Kochba. After his death, all acknowledged that he was not the moshiach......"
(Mohsiach being the jewish term for Messiah).

For anyone with a more than passing interest in this, here is the link http://www.jewfaq.org/moshiach.htm

Blessings