question about the christian god

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Paganlight
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Post by Paganlight » Thu Feb 02, 2006 3:46 am

No probs - no offence meant, none taken. ;)
"ǽr notian ond æfteryld céosan ǽghwæðer, gehwilc gesælan of árweorðung gān begeondan gelǽran and gelust."
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Post by Willow » Thu Feb 02, 2006 2:59 pm

RainforestMoon,
I thought about what you said. Is it possible that the judeo Christian God may have been misrepresented by the cultures that wrote the scriptures? The reason I ask is because a lot of the ancient gods were not very nice pieces of work. Not all but some.
And demanding exclusivity makes political sense, it is way easier to gain control of a land using God as a tool (I.e. kill all the people who believe something different and can make rightful claim to the land because our God is better).

And I agree that the term judeo Christian is something of a misappropriation. The Christians I know would say they are the same God but Jews just won't acknowledge the trinity. Anyway, that is just a thought, I am not trying to fight but I would love to hear what you think.
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Post by Kelreth » Thu Feb 02, 2006 6:47 pm

their whole dogma makes their god look like an extremely nice being. When all the bible is about is when people f-up and then get the crap blown out of them by "god"

i really dont understand it all, im stuck in a theology and am seeing even more reason to get the heck away from xianianity
i am prone to free association. Basically whatever i think i type, so sorry if things get really erratic...

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Post by Willow » Thu Feb 02, 2006 7:23 pm

Kelreth,
well there are some stories of forgiveness and love in the Bible. I would be interested to know which Christian Dogma you mean. Honestly your path is what you choose and I support you in that, but there are multiple versions of Christianity. and I guess what you are exposed to is also restricted by where you live. I am lucky enough to be in a city with a lot of very affirming united churches right now.
Sorry, I know I am sounding a little preachy but sometimes I have trouble with the Christian sentiments on the board, for the most part I take them in stride, but I think there is a lot to be said for it, and many other religions as well. I have to remind myself why I stick with the religion, and you guys are great at making me think critically about my choices.
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Post by Crazy Healer Lady » Thu Feb 02, 2006 10:05 pm

I know I am sounding a little preachy but sometimes I have trouble with the Christian sentiments on the board, for the most part I take them in stride, but I think there is a lot to be said for it, and many other religions as well. I have to remind myself why I stick with the religion, and you guys are great at making me think critically about my choices.
I agree. It's fun to bash them and have something to sort of scapegoat when you are in a terrible mood, because let's face it most of us have had BAD experiences, but you are totally right.

I mentioned in a post previous that I was reading up on Jesus. I am no longer afraid of him, because I feel that his words were completely turned to hateful rubbish. I am not Xian by any means, but I am rethinking the bible diet, the teachings of Jesus, and the miracles that were performed. I will not worship my deity the way they do, for I walk a path lined with herbs and trees and flowers and not with crucifixes and bibles.

There is something to the foundation of Xianity, to be sure, something we all feel, and that is the quest for reunion with the Divine, however you see that Divine to be. What I am sad about is that the teachings of a great man were destroyed and turned hateful and these jaded beings turned what could have been a powerful and amazing spiritual path into what we all see today in Xianity. It is beautiful until the persecution starts.


Oh, and I must say, "Poor Ragnar." :cry: It takes so long to realize you're not actually being mean. ;) (most of the time... I think...) [-o<
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Post by Ragnar » Fri Feb 03, 2006 12:39 am

Crazy Healer Lady wrote: What I am sad about is that the teachings of a great man were destroyed and turned hateful and these jaded beings turned what could have been a powerful and amazing spiritual path into what we all see today in Xianity. It is beautiful until the persecution starts.
I may be an old cynical bu**er, but personaly I see no proof that the bible was twisted, so I prefer not to give them the benefit of the doubt.
If the bible WAS twisted, it was done by christians. So...

What great man? If he was around today he would be the mumbling nutter in the corner of the pub with the five day old news paper and second hand rolling tobacco.

Or living in a small room with thick doors and a paculiarly thick spongy wall paper, wearing his shirt backwards.
Crazy Healer Lady wrote: Oh, and I must say, "Poor Ragnar." :cry: It takes so long to realize you're not actually being mean. ;) (most of the time... I think...) [-o<
Hmm, German humour mixed with Wiking temprement, and Scottish stubbornness, not helped by having no coffee for two days, cus it ran out before pay day, meets American P.C. #-o

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Post by Rain ForestMoon » Fri Feb 03, 2006 3:26 am

Willow wrote:RainforestMoon,
I thought about what you said. Is it possible that the judeo Christian God may have been misrepresented by the cultures that wrote the scriptures? The reason I ask is because a lot of the ancient gods were not very nice pieces of work. Not all but some.
This "misrepresentation" is an interesting thought.
I believe that any "God" is in essence a human construct, a human attempt to somehow grasp the nature of the Divine on the one hand, and to make sense of themselves and the world they live in on the other hand.
So, in some sense any God has been subject to misrepresentation.

The Jewish and Christian Bible talk about God creating Humans in God's likeness. I believe that it's just he other way around: Humans have created God(s) in their likeness.

Willow wrote: And demanding exclusivity makes political sense, it is way easier to gain control of a land using God as a tool (I.e. kill all the people who believe something different and can make rightful claim to the land because our God is better).
Naturally. Monotheism allows a central authority to have far greater power than Polytheism. The ruling classes just need to appropriate one God to achieve their aims.....

Willow wrote: And I agree that the term judeo Christian is something of a misappropriation. The Christians I know would say they are the same God but Jews just won't acknowledge the trinity. Anyway, that is just a thought, I am not trying to fight but I would love to hear what you think.
It is only Christians that use the therm Judeo-Christian. The concept has no validity in the thinking of Jews. By using that term christianity manages to take on the mantle of greater authenticity.

In jewish thinking, for instance, the idea that God takes on human from is just pure blasphemy. There is no doubt in my mind that this idea of a half-God/half Human has been adapted from Mithraism.

Christianity as we know it is essentially a construct of Paul.
Jesus (as he is described) certainly was not a Christian. He was a Jew.
Jesus' followers, who knew him (as he is described) certainly were not Christians. They were Jews.
Paul (who, as it is written, never met Jesus) started this whole christianity thing rolling. And he was in constant conflict with actual followers of Jesus.

I think it would be fair to say that the remnants of Jesus' true followers were totally wiped out in the year 70, when the Romans destoyed Jerusalem and its inhabitants after an unsuccessful Jewish uprising.
The christians of today would probably more accurately described as paulinists.....


I think I have rambled on for long enough. Hope it makes some sense.

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Post by Rain ForestMoon » Fri Feb 03, 2006 3:30 am

Artemisblessed wrote:i agree. except that in the case of the judeo-christian god(s), as you say, to my understanding is pretty much all you could ever want in a god, parently, friendly, protective, loving, inspiring, etc. so maybe to the christians (i'm not really sure, i'm just speculating) they find no need for other gods, so they only say that to eliminate temptation.

temptation of what? i'm not sure...

The christian God is even more complete than that. You forgot to mention that the christian God is also cruel, violent, murderous, sadistic, vengeful, etc.......

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Post by Artemisblessed » Fri Feb 03, 2006 7:57 am

sorry, ragnar... PaganLight's right, i DID think that. sorry! :oops:
Treat every new person you meet as if they will be an important influence on you later (you know, love thy neighbor?)

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Post by Artemisblessed » Fri Feb 03, 2006 8:11 am

sorry bout the double post, but i must agree with you on that, but i also have to beg to differ. my vendetta against the Christian God is slowly drawing to a close. it's not HIM i hate, it's his blasted FOLLOWERS. as far as i'm concerned, he's done nothing wrong. to me.

to others....well.... #-o

yeah. i guess if you go by what's written in the bible, he's a combination of that, but i've never personnally met the man. did i already say that? oh, well.

but what i'm trying to say is, to some people, he is as important as the best friend they never had.
Treat every new person you meet as if they will be an important influence on you later (you know, love thy neighbor?)

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Post by Paganlight » Fri Feb 03, 2006 8:37 am

Crazy Healer Lady wrote:
It's fun to bash them and have something to sort of scapegoat when you are in a terrible mood, because let's face it most of us have had BAD experiences......... I will not worship my deity the way they do, for I walk a path lined with herbs and trees and flowers and not with crucifixes and bibles........... what could have been a powerful and amazing spiritual path into what we all see today in Xianity. It is beautiful until the persecution starts.


Oh, and I must say, "Poor Ragnar." :cry: It takes so long to realize you're not actually being mean. ;) (most of the time... I think...) [-o<
I agree with all of the above....CHL has said it much bettwe than I ever could. Having been raised a Christian myself, and not finding my true path until much later, (and of course, I'm still finding things out...) I've sort of known about the Xian God, and Jesus - I've never been afraid of him, like CHL, and I also think that Rain Forestmoon is completely right.

Sorry if this post makes little or no sense...I've not slept for two days...
"ǽr notian ond æfteryld céosan ǽghwæðer, gehwilc gesælan of árweorðung gān begeondan gelǽran and gelust."
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Post by Willow » Fri Feb 03, 2006 8:41 am

thanks for your thoughtful replies everyone, I felt a little on a limb...

CHL, i have to agree with you, it is fun to bash them. Me being the sadistic nut I am though I find it fun to make fun of most people :lol:

Ragnar Wrote:
What great man? If he was around today he would be the mumbling nutter in the corner of the pub with the five day old news paper and second hand rolling tobacco.
Maybe in westerns society, maybe he would have been like doctor Phil, I can't say I believe Jesus was a nutter though. Alas, we must agree to disagree. But remember, shaman in one culture, schizophrenic in another.

Rainforest moon: I have to agree with you, Paul is probably my biggest roadblock int he Christians part of my path. I sometimes wish the Bible stopped at John.
Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
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Post by Ragnar » Fri Feb 03, 2006 8:48 am

Artemisblessed wrote:sorry, ragnar... PaganLight's right, i DID think that. sorry! :oops:
Quite all right. :-D :-D

I am maybe some to blame as well. I REALLY must NOT write withoput my dose of coffee. :lol:
Artemisblessed wrote:sorry bout the double post, but i must agree with you on that, but i also have to beg to differ. my vendetta against the Christian God is slowly drawing to a close. it's not HIM i hate, it's his blasted FOLLOWERS. as far as i'm concerned, he's done nothing wrong. to me.
I suposse therin lies a difference. I see the god as inseperable from the followers.
Rain ForestMoon wrote:The Jewish and Christian Bible talk about God creating Humans in God's likeness. I believe that it's just he other way around: Humans have created God(s) in their likeness.
Thats my opinion as well. So, as you will apprieciate, I do not really hold with the "bible being twisted" theory. Whether twisted or not, THEY wrote it, and they have made the choice to follow it.

Before the monothiests came along, I believe NO other people knew of a single, all powerfull god. So they invented it, they formed it in thier own image.

So regardless, they are guilty as charged. Guilty by association.

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Post by Crazy Healer Lady » Fri Feb 03, 2006 8:51 am

Ragnar said:
I may be an old cynical bu**er, but personaly I see no proof that the bible was twisted, so I prefer not to give them the benefit of the doubt.
If the bible WAS twisted, it was done by christians. So...

What great man? If he was around today he would be the mumbling nutter in the corner of the pub with the five day old news paper and second hand rolling tobacco.

Or living in a small room with thick doors and a paculiarly thick spongy wall paper, wearing his shirt backwards.
Of course it was twisted by Xians. Who else would do it? I'm sorry but when you only look at the Fundies you are limiting your view incredibly. You cannot say that the whole religion is bad because only the Fundies get through. How could a text survive translation and centuries of political and religious dictatorship without changes? I do not believe the bible, and I never will, but I started reading it as my Xian friend would read it to get some perspective and study it a bit. Instead of following the bible exactly, it is pick and choose and that may be cheating but it can be the only way you can follow these crazy religions without turning into a hate monger.
I still see Jesus as a great man because of the healings he performed. They may be fabrication, and heck, the whole story of Jesus could be fabrication, but I doubt it. I will probably start talking on this board about Buddha once I start reading more on his healings. I want to research every historical healer. They fascinate me and the "healer of the month" will probably be my obsession until I research the next one. This month it's Jesus, so I'm researching and soul searching and trying to separate myth from "fact" as much as one can do without actually being there. There's a good chance of lying to yourself any way you choose to believe, lol.
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Post by Willow » Fri Feb 03, 2006 8:52 am

Before the monotheists came along, I believe NO other people knew of a single, all powerful god. So they invented it, they formed it in their own image.
Just out of curiosity, do you think all conceptions of the Gods invented? Or do humans have a natural rhythm of a type of divine they will turn towards?
Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
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