Paganism and the Death Penalty

Discussions of all things pagan and neo-pagan.

What are your views on the Death Penalty?

It should be banned and never used!
7
29%
I don't like it, but don't care if it remains on the books or not.
2
8%
It should be used in only the most extreme cases like Serial killings.
6
25%
It should be available for all murder cases.
4
17%
Hang 'em All; Hang 'em High!
5
21%
 
Total votes: 24

unrealraven
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Post by unrealraven » Mon Jun 23, 2008 10:53 pm

thanks for the welcome daibanjo justice and the fact we are are going down hill as to the way we treat ppl and how ppl will not take respectability for there own actions


and to rangnar i do live in the U.S. and here is the proof strait from the U.S Constitution word for word

Amendment 5 - Trial and Punishment, Compensation for Takings. Ratified 12/15/1791.

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

see it is not a load of BS

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Post by Ragnar » Mon Jun 23, 2008 11:21 pm

unrealraven wrote:the constitution allows for the death penalty and even to remove a arm or hand,
Was the proof I requested.
Amendment 5 - Trial and Punishment, Compensation for Takings. Ratified 12/15/1791.

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

see it is not a load of BS
Cant see no hands or arms mentioned there, can any one else people???

So, UNLESS you provide proof, your statement is a TOTAL LOAD OF BS!

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Post by unrealraven » Mon Jun 23, 2008 11:43 pm

what is a limb? its a hand a finger a foot a leg a arm

here it is from a Dictionary


Main Entry:
limb
Pronunciation:
\ˈlim\
Function:
noun
Etymology:
Middle English lim, from Old English; akin to Old Norse limr limb and perhaps to Old English lith limb
Date:
before 12th century

1 a: one of the projecting paired appendages (as wings) of an animal body used especially for movement and grasping but sometimes modified into sensory or sexual organs b: a leg or arm of a human being

and jeopardy is just so its clear

jeop·ar·dy
Pronunciation:
\ˈje-pər-dē\
Function:
noun
Etymology:
Middle English jeopardie, from Anglo-French juparti, jeuparti alternative, literally, divided game
Date:
14th century

1 : exposure to or imminence of death, loss, or injury : danger 2 : the danger that an accused person is subjected to when on trial for a criminal offense
so you fill it in it states

"put in jeopardy of life or limb" or to put it another way put in to exposure to or imminence of death, loss, or injury (danger) of loss of a projecting paired appendages

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Post by Ragnar » Mon Jun 23, 2008 11:52 pm

And you read thjat as "being allowed to cut of arms and legs for a crime do you?

:laughing3: :sign5: :toothy10: :smt003 :smt005 :laughing3: :sign5: :toothy10: :smt003 :smt005 :laughing3: :sign5: :toothy10: :smt003 :smt005 :laughing3: :sign5: :toothy10: :smt003 :smt005 :laughing3: :sign5: :toothy10: :smt003 :smt005

Don't ever defend yourself in court boy.

:laughing3: :sign5: :toothy10: :smt003 :smt005 :laughing3: :sign5: :toothy10: :smt003 :smt005 :laughing3: :sign5: :toothy10: :smt003 :smt005 :laughing3: :sign5: :toothy10: :smt003 :smt005 :laughing3: :sign5: :toothy10: :smt003 :smt005

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Post by unrealraven » Tue Jun 24, 2008 12:01 am

thats the way the courts read it here thats why the death penalty is aloud and used but they do count the removing of a limb to be agenst the 8th amendment Cruel and Unusual Punishment (witch is another argument all together )

but i would like to know how you read and under stand that line so i know where you are coming from

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Post by Ragnar » Tue Jun 24, 2008 12:28 am

Life and limb to those that speak ENGLISH, is a GENERAL, IE NOT to be taken literaly, term for body ans soul.

In fact under German and British law the phrase IS "Body ans soul".

Now I work in an office with lawyers from most of the world, and the guy here from Texas sais you are full of BS. So I take HIS word for it.

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Post by Kystar » Tue Jun 24, 2008 7:18 am

What you have to understand, unrealraven, is that the Constitution was written in the 1700's, where the English legal language was full of metaphors and euphemisms and common phrases of their time.

You cannot take it as a literal Word for Word in the earlier Amendments, because then what you're doing is warping it. How did they speak then? With a lot of fairly complicated sentencing...at least the "learned men" did.

This is why there are court interpretations running around...b/c the language has changed over the 200+ years that this piece of legal paper has been floating around.
You say "Witch" like it's a bad thing!

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Post by daibanjo » Tue Jun 24, 2008 10:57 am

Got a couple of things on my mind.
First, if you think that we are too nice to criminals then obviously you've never spent time in the joint. Three square meals is a very generous description of prison food and until you have tried to sleep in an overcrowded cell, lying on the floor and been woken up by splashings from the urinal, then you can talk about prison being "Nice."
If someone commits a crime against me or someone I care about, yes, I want to tear them limb from limb. But I am also aware that I am exacting revenge. It may not fit the crime. We all, from time to time want to break the legs of jay-walkers, but it does not fit the crime. Fortunately, civilized society has a legal system in place to take matters out of the personal arena and, at least, attempt to exert justice. Not revenge.
Lastly, please take a look around this forum and read the posts. You will find that we are a pretty tolerant bunch. We allow for all kinds of views but what gets us all annoyed is when someone appears out of nowhere with a point of view insisting that it is right and anything else is wrong.
I mean, you even got sweet gentle Ragnar upset. How could that happen? :-?
It'll be all right in the end. If it's not all right, it's not the end.

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Post by Lotus » Tue Jun 24, 2008 11:26 am

I worked as a Corrections Officer in a Federal Pen (both Administrative and Low) for a year.
I can tell you that we are being too nice to criminals. Also, what we sentence people with does not make logical sense. A rapist/child molester gets less time than some junky found with his drugs. I am not speaking about drug dealers just the junky.

The prision system is a booming business. I met a prisonser who was locked up for accidentally backing his bike over a seedling tree in a National Park. Yes, I did read his file.
The courts set rapist free all of the time with low penalties while some dude snapped a seedling and gets two years?!

IMO if you rape anyone they should lock your butt up and throw away the key.

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Post by Kitsune » Tue Jun 24, 2008 5:58 pm

From a Canadian point of view, our jails have bbq steak days at least once a month... And I've known enough criminals here in Calgary who used to say that Jail was thier "Winter home". They work to get caught at something big enough to get a few months for just before the cold season hit.

Definately too lenient. They should be getting the bare necesseties, not living better than the lower rungs of society.


And I nearly died laughing at the idea that somebody thought that the US constitution allowed for limbs to be removed based on that line... :oops:

Even if it was unintentional, thanks for the laugh! :-D
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Post by unrealraven » Tue Jun 24, 2008 9:11 pm

daibanjo you say i got sweet gentle Ragnar upset. so be it we will dill with it we just clash over this topic (and from what i seen more from are POV over 1 part of my post he has not sead any thing about more then 5 words from it)

as for being to nice i know we are i have worked as a guard and seen it first hand that the killers, rapists, and the like has more rights then the guards. right now in New Mexico some rancher got more time for killing a wolf and protecting his livestock and family ( the wolf was closer then 10 yards from his back door) thin a killer

and as you say Lastly i have read the forms here and i never sead i was right and anything else is wrong. i defended what i sead and my point of view i interpret live and limb as just that he dose not. i dont read body and soul to mean the same thing he dose

if a argument dose not make someone think then what is the point

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Post by daibanjo » Wed Jun 25, 2008 4:43 pm

Did the same person write that?
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Re:

Post by Sìle » Fri Mar 13, 2009 5:21 pm

daibanjo wrote:That said, I personally oppose the geath penalty for two main reasons,
1) We can rarely be sure that we are executing the right person. History is full of those mistakes.
2) It will never be handed out fairly and equally. Never to Rich or Poor, Men or Women, Black or White.
Those are my opinions and I only offer them as opinions that's all a Pagan can do.

My beliefs allow for the death penalty - the myths abound with examples. Personally, however, I feel the same as daibanjo; there have already been too many mistakes - even with the advent DNA evidence, mistakes are made.
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Re: Paganism and the Death Penalty

Post by FyreGarnet » Fri Mar 13, 2009 6:34 pm

While it is sad when mistakes like that occur, I still like the idea of the death penalty. The cost of keeping someone in prison for the rest of their life is high. Why should I pay for them to have food, even if it is pretty nasty and cheap, and for them to have a roof over their heads when I can barely keep one over mine. Granted, currently in the US, the cost of the appeals for death row is higher than life imprisonment, I'd like to see a reduction in appeals now that we do have DNA typing that can be done in only a couple of days. It sucks for that person that is innocent and all the evidence points to them, but he or she was tried in a court of law. I personally would rather die, than stay in prison as well, if I'm ever convicted of something. But then, I might just be a bit odd...... :-?

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Re: Paganism and the Death Penalty

Post by Kitsune » Sat Mar 14, 2009 7:42 am

I don't know how it is in other countries but our prisioners get prime steak meals, and tend to live better than those who only make $30k a year.

True they're locked away, but that only lasts for a little while. They always get out before their time. And they don't pay their due to the society they hurt.

I personally still think that they should have a three strikes rule. Career criminals don't deserve our pity or our help.
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