Wicca vs. Pagan

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Re: Wicca vs. Pagan

Post by Crazy Healer Lady » Thu Jan 29, 2009 3:47 pm

Yes I was caught up on Christian Fundies. But do we want to be caught up in the semantics of the Muslim Fundies? Bombing and killing and mutilating? Is that something we really want to be a part of? They're killing each other and they're killing us.

Hate breeds hate, and it's a downward spiral.

As within so without. If you observe a man in a state of anger and hate, they create more of that on a limited scale. In the energy field, you see it, and they attract it, create it in the reactions of others. If you observe a man in a state of acceptance and peace and love, they create more of that, but so many more times than the man who creates hate. Not only should we heal ourselves from within because we don't want to create more hate, but we should recognize that the positive is many times stronger than the negative. A negative thought, for instance, only has a fraction of the electrical charge as a positive thought.

Of course the hate messages work, for a time. Even 800 years. But a message of peace and acceptance and healing is much stronger, and will create a sustainable existence. It's what everyone wants, deep down. Even those who are so contorted, so energetically damaged and confused that they desire pain and chaos, when you look within, deeper than the outward expression of their angst and woundings, you see the spark of light. That light wants peace. That light wants to accept, to love and be loved unconditionally.

What I talk about here is not just Pagans being safe in a world of extremists and fundamentalists. I talk about world healing, and it starts from within. We are not getting anywhere by creating more strife. We are stronger than that. We are better than that. We can choose another reality. Yes, it may be damn hard when dealing with extremists and those who can't see anything but their rage, but we are stronger. It's light vs dark, and light is more powerful.
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Re: Wicca vs. Pagan

Post by Kitsune » Thu Jan 29, 2009 4:28 pm

Crazy Healer Lady wrote:It's light vs dark, and light is more powerful.
Now that I have a computer, I can actually comment here!

Light is not more powerful than Dark, anymore than Good is more powerful than Evil. Perfection is found in a balance of the two... not in the glorious defeat of one over the other. A deviation too far to one side or the other results in a system overthrow eventually.

We need people like Ragnar who aren't going to be flowery, just as much as we need people like Crazy, who will (so long as no one's rights are being obstructed).

Fundies aren't bad, per se, until they start hitting the point where they unbalance the system. On the opposite side, too much tolerance can be just as dangerous. Are we going to be so tolerant to other religions that we're going to espouse human sacrifice and religious cannibalism as fine? No likely, but that could be what happens with too much of it!

Without the full spectrum, we can't see clearly... we will always be missing part of the picture.
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Re: Wicca vs. Pagan

Post by Kystar » Thu Jan 29, 2009 5:13 pm

I agree with Kitsune.

There is no progress to be found in the absolute.

The human soul is made of lights AND shadows. You can't be human without both.

The world needs the balance. The world also needs order and chaos. Light and dark. Good and Evil.

After all, frankly, without acts of evil, how could we identify an act of good? Without the darkness, how would we appreciate the light?

Though, I don't agree with lumping all of one religion into the same heap. After all, one could say that because a few Christian priests have issues, they're ALL pedophiles, couldn't one? But would you be correct to say so? Or would it be narrow-minded?
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Re: Wicca vs. Pagan

Post by Crazy Healer Lady » Thu Jan 29, 2009 6:03 pm

Hmm. I feel I am being misinterpreted.

I do not mean light and dark as in Good vs Evil. In my mind there IS no good or evil. There is negative and positive, that is, a state of health and a state of dis-ease, on the physical, mental, emotional, spiritual.

A state of anger is literally a state of dis-ease. If you come from a state of wholeness and health, you create a healing response to negative energy. Your entire reaction is different. This is not too much tolerance. This is not flying off the handle. It is creating a healing response to dis-ease on a powerful level.

In that sense, light is stronger than dark.

The natural flow of things is to flow to wholeness. We have to create angst, disharmony, anger, strife, poverty, violence. These are not natural states for us, and I disagree fully with anyone who says that they are. I know this because I am a lightworker. I know this because I am a healer. I heal through all aspects, physical, mental, relational, spiritual, emotional, all of it. And when there is healing, there is no fighting.

Really, to stay in a state of anger is to stay in an unhealthy state. That's all that it is. An unhealthy state.

Do we want to approach our hurdles this way? Do we want to approach our conflicts - personally or as a group - from an unhealthy state?

No.

Why?

Because we will only create more of it.

My heart goes out to everyone in pain. We all have wounds we need to heal. My argument is not that we have to cross our legs and hum until the world fixes itself. My argument is that we need to fix OURSELVES, and change the world from there. We cannot react out of old wounds and expect anything different than what we already have.

"Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result." 10 points to whoever knows the man who said this.
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Re: Wicca vs. Pagan

Post by FyreGarnet » Thu Jan 29, 2009 6:19 pm

I disagree CHL. Though poverty, angst, etc. are created, they are natural states. If they weren't, we would have much less of it. I believe there will always be anger and strife as well as the many other things you mentioned. I do not believe there will ever be world peace. There are too many who are lazy and would rather steal than get a job. There are too many who are greedy, but sometimes rightfully so. I work hard for what I earn. I don't believe that I should give my hard earned money and items to people who will not work and would rather steal. (side note, not all people who need assistance are lazy and steal. The ones that are abuse the system)

I don't think that hatred is a disease at all. I believe it is another feeling on the continuum we have in life. Sometimes hatred stems from ignorance, but that is natural as well. We hate what we fear, typically, and we fear what we do not know or understand. This has kept humans alive for so many years. If you are all alone in the forest and you hear a very strange and loud sound, will you run towards it to check it out? Probably not, for fear that you may be injured. This is the survival instinct.

I'm not saying that killing people over religion and misunderstanding is right, but it is natural. We repeat history simply because it is nature. We should learn from our history, that would be nice. But it probably will not happen. Fight or flight takes over far to easily (another natural occurrence) and the brain does not necessarily think like it should when in that situation.

I hope this isn't too much rambling and certainly not too confusing. Also, they are my beliefs. It would be nice to have world peace, but then our population would grow exponentially, and we would have to pass laws like China. :-(

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Re: Wicca vs. Pagan

Post by Bandersnatch » Fri Jan 30, 2009 8:11 am

"Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result." 10 points to whoever knows the man who said this.
It's most often attributed to Albert Einstein, sometimes to Benjamin Franklin, but there seems to be no proof of either.

This is one of those nasty questions with too many opinions and not enough real answers. I agree with CHL - more violence will only create more violence and solve nothing. On the other hand I am not going to lay in front of the tank and let it run me over either. I will fight to defend the things that are important to me and the people I love and care about.

We need more tolerance, more understanding and a willingness to forgive past errors. But as long as there are people out there killing, etc. in the name of God and Country there will also be people fighting to survive in their wake.

So I guess I'm no help - I can understand both sides but when I put it into the context of today's world - I'm with Ragnar. If you try to hurt me and mine I will stomp on you. :axe:

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Re: Wicca vs. Pagan

Post by Ragnar » Fri Jan 30, 2009 8:41 am

WE never had the chance to "run".

You forget who's this earth is in the first place.

Would you say the same about a druggy breaking into your house and taking all your valubales?

Because that is EXACTLY what THEY have done to US.

As to "church" going, I repeat, ANY one that goes to church once per month or more VOLUNTARILY is a fundy. They may PRETEND to suffer your "hobby", lets see what happens when the going gets "tough".

christians and muslims are PROGRAMMED to hate Heathens. We are worse to them than they are to each other. And WHY?

Because we show their "priests" to be liars. There IS an alternative, and they HATE that.

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Re: Wicca vs. Pagan

Post by Crazy Healer Lady » Fri Jan 30, 2009 2:08 pm

Ragnar wrote:Would you say the same about a druggy breaking into your house and taking all your valubales?
I would say exactly my main point here:

Act out of a healed state, not out of wounds.

When you act out of a healed state, you do not offer the same of what has been offered to you. And, when you act out a healed state, it diffuses the situation.

If a druggy broke into my house, assuming I could come from a healed state, I would act from this state. Because I am an energy worker, I would also work energetically to take him out of his defense. I have seen it time and time again: When you act from a state of wholeness, suddenly a person isn't screaming at you. They aren't coming at you with fists. They aren't trying to undermine you. At worst, they just leave you alone. At best, they become your friend.

Coming from this state of healing, you cannot help but make the world a better place.

No matter our actions, if we come from this state, we will make the world a better place for Pagans, and humans and Mother Nature in general.
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Re: Wicca vs. Pagan

Post by Kitsune » Fri Jan 30, 2009 4:21 pm

As I said, I think both of you take each side a bit too far, but that is my opinion.

Crazy, you said Light is more powerful, and I still have to disagree with you. You, of course, would feel that Light is more powerful, since that is what you call to you. But Ragnar has obviously found a similar power in the dark. Remember what you call to you, is what you use and what becomes more apparent as time goes on.

Once again, it's not more powerful, it's different.

While Dis-ease is not the best state to be in, it's necessary for us to grow. If we all acted from a state of pure bliss, we wouldn't grow, we wouldn't learn, because we wouldn't have to. Humans are naturally lazy. Remember, without the dis-ease, there can be no growth, and that equals stagnant.

You just experienced this with your back, did you not? Would have gone searching through onions layers to heal yourself, if you thought you were just fine? Would you have accepted the kick in the pants for to you move if you had still honestly thought you were on the right path?
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Re: Wicca vs. Pagan

Post by Crazy Healer Lady » Fri Jan 30, 2009 8:57 pm

Kitsune, I love you :) and I honour your wisdom. Thank you
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Re: Wicca vs. Pagan

Post by Ragnar » Fri Jan 30, 2009 11:49 pm

Crazy Healer Lady wrote:When you act from a state of wholeness, suddenly a person isn't screaming at you. They aren't coming at you with fists. They aren't trying to undermine you. At worst, they just leave you alone. At best, they become your friend.
But that removes the reason to break his face. Because he sure as HEL does not get his just deserves in the legal system of ANY Western country.

And when we talk about christians it is even worse. They RUN the legal system. Revenge is the only justice available.

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Re: Wicca vs. Pagan

Post by Dark Waters » Sun Feb 01, 2009 5:56 pm

Well as far as the legal system ... depends on who you listen to. Many would say that the US system is run by the Jews, as well as the business sector, the government and Hollywood. Of course it all depends on perspective.

As far as the "Fundie" question is concerned, it is simple that anyone is a Fundie that believes in the necessary "Fundamental" concept of 'Organized' religion. That concept being that they have the inside track on the workings of the Universe and know the Absolute Truth as has been handed down. In other words "They're Right and anybody who believes differently is wrong". As has been demonstrated, they are everywhere, among every religion, even amongst our own. Personally I don't believe any one mortal person, nor any one mortal tradition, can have the full truth on Divine workings by definition.

When anyone, of any faith, can honestly say - you have your beliefs, I have mine and I'm OK with that - then they really can not be a Fundie regardless of their personal routine.

As far as the term Pagan - it depends on who is speaking as language is so subjective. When Ragnar says Pagan, he has a specific concept/faith in mind - the REAL Heathen/Pagans as he puts it for what ever that means. When your average Christian says it, they mean anyone who isn't. When I say it, I mean any one of the ancient religions from Shinto to Shamanism, from Aztec to Aboriginal and so forth. Personally I think that the ancient organized reigions such as Norse, Celtic, Egyptian, Greco-Roman, etc could probably be loosely associated with the term. As far as "legally recognized religions" when the Brits included Jedi among them, to me it dilutes the meaning of the term.

Now Wiccanism tend to be more specific, but still has plenty of wiggle room. Max was somewhat correct in that most Modern Wiccans are part of a "recent" tradition though it is more like 140 years than 40. Much of the ancient Wiccan traditions have been lost through time, through trials and through troubles. Much of what has been passed was done so in verbal tradition and may have been warped in the retellings or teachers dying before passing all the lessons on. But people have worked to reclaim what they can of the Faith and renew it, however when you have one school of thought saying other schools of thought on the same beliefs is wrong - then you know something is missing.

I know I rambled on a bit, but that's my 2 cents, and that needs to be a lot after the devaluation of the US dollar lately.
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Re: Wicca vs. Pagan

Post by Max » Wed Feb 11, 2009 2:45 pm

Interesting how I pop on to this thread for the first time since I last posted and find my name mentioned! I was just going to add some thoughts I had recently. I stopped looking on here because I didn't like the tone that emerged, as I am a secret hippy liberal who generally loves everyone and hates confrontation :oops: . But it all seems to have simmered down again. I think I was being a bit careless when I last wrote, well meaning, but a sort of careless thinking out loud. Well, a few days ago I lay in bed thinking and suddenly sat up and talked at my sleepy-confused S.O. for a good ten minutes and this is what I came up with:

I guess the way that some people generalise all non-christians as the umbrella term 'pagans' would be the same as labeling all western monotheistic religions as the same, and I'm sure that a Christian/Muslim/Jew would object to me saying "yeah but you all worship one god, he's the same god really isn't he, it's all basically the same religion" "Well, not really" they would reply (even if you found evidence that they did have similar roots). And so a worshipper of a specific 'pagan' god (term used deliberately) would find it a bit offensive being lumped in with other 'pagan' worshippers of varying deities. It's obvious stuff, but I don't follow a specific path so I never really thought about the details of it before.
I agree, Dark Waters - language is very subjective, hence misunderstandings.

This is the first forum that I've joined (dinosaur that I am) so I've also learned not to idly think out loud on a forum as a newbie! No apology because I meant no harm, but absolutely no offence to any intended.
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Re: Wicca vs. Pagan

Post by FyreGarnet » Wed Feb 11, 2009 6:35 pm

Max, you did nothing wrong at all. You had every right to say what you said, and I believe that Ragnar was getting a little out of hand. I tried to diffuse the situation, but to no avail and gave up. I don't think that anyone can generalize things enough and be accurate. As the old saying goes, "if I've told you once, I've told you a thousand times, don't overexagerate..." Everyone is different, and I tried to point that out.

I think there are many people out there who understand that there are different religions out there, and that is ok. Some people will make fun of certain sects. It happens. And sometimes the whole religion gets a bad rap for a couple of silly people. It happens too. And we just have to try to look beyond that and see what is truly there.

There are some people who will believe in their heart that we are going to hell because we do not worship their God and we don't necessarily believe in him. There is no problem with that. They care about us so much that they do not want us to go to hell over something so silly as a God. Sure, it would be nice if they could be a little less pushy about it, but we all have our little issues, no?

I am being honest that my husband and his family are the true Christians. They are caring and loving and would go out of their way to help someone. I'm not sure if his parents know I'm Pagan, but he obviously does and he's ok with that. He understands why I choose not to worship his God. He's never "spoken" to me like some others have.

I hope this makes you feel more welcome. I'm very sorry that you felt a bit offended earlier. Please understand that our board here is not normally like that.

Best wishes to you either way.

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Re: Wicca vs. Pagan

Post by Max » Thu Feb 12, 2009 2:49 am

I honestly didn't feel offended FyreGarnet, it's my own fault if I find the recipes section of the board is safer for me and my ego! I'm glad we all got a bit passionate about it, life would be boring if we all had the same opinion, everyone has a right to think what they want ... and this is why I'm rubbish in a heated discussion.

And I'm with you, people tell you they are worried you'll go to hell either because they care so much or have social-interaction issues, in which case be sympathetic! And along with 'fundie' Christian friends I've met some pretty dogmatic Wiccans too, and I adore them all anyway, I just talk economy instead of religion with them in those 3o'clock in the morning deep-and-meaningfuls.
FyreGarnet wrote:"As the old saying goes, "if I've told you once, I've told you a thousand times, don't overexagerate..."
Ah that made me laugh, I'm going to store that away in my quote bank.
"I am not young enough to know everything." Oscar Wilde

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