Talking Science

This area is for the INTELLIGENT discussion of all other religions, be it Christianity, Buddhist, Hindu, Native American, or anything else!
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Mahala
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Talking Science

Post by Mahala » Wed Apr 23, 2008 9:41 pm

Something that often riddles me, since I really like science. How would you possibly explain God? I mean... and Jesus too. A bit impossible. Evolution comes to mind as well, and the first humans, Adam and Eve. Specifically...

- If God and Jesus are everywhere at any given time, how can WE tell?
- How do we know that Satan or God even exist, save for written word?
- How does the Bible deal with evolution? There's a lot of evidence on evolution, so what are we supposed to do, ignore it?
- If Adam and Eve were the only two humans 'making babies', wouldn't we all be brothers and sisters?
Last edited by Mahala on Thu Apr 24, 2008 5:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Kystar » Thu Apr 24, 2008 5:14 am

Honestly, here's how I always understood it.

Religion says "This is the way it is, always was and always will be. You do NOT question it."

Science says "We think this is right, but if we see new evidence, we'll change our minds. Question EVERYTHING."

Scientifically, there is NO PROOF that the Bible is anything more than a collection of myths and legends of a certain group of people, much like any book on the Roman Gods or the Egyptian, or Greek.

The Bible DOESN'T Deal with Evolution...it says that God created every living thing EXACTLY as it is today at some random point in the past before Christ was sent to save humanity.

Apparently, it's a matter of faith to believe in Jesus and Satan...because according to most Christian paths, the Bible is infallible, b/c it was written by God...nevermind the almost uncountable revisions that various Monks could enact as they "translated" it.

If Adam and Eve WERE the source of Humans, then yes, we're inbred to the point of ICK. However, I do tend to think of humanity as related...simply b/c we ARE Humans.
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Post by Mahala » Thu Apr 24, 2008 5:23 am

Thanks for the clarification. It seems to me that the Bible is like a one-way street, you go or you don't, there's no half way.

So trying to put science into the Bible is like trying to get an apple to grow from an orange to me. :-?

I find it very hard to believe in the Bible with evolution in our faces every day, and the fact many people can't question it amazes me... aren't we taught as children that questioning things improves them?

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Post by Kystar » Thu Apr 24, 2008 5:28 am

Mahala wrote:
So trying to put science into the Bible is like trying to get an apple to grow from an orange to me. :-?
Yup, that about sums it up. This is why in history scientists were called Heretics and attempted to be silenced.

Every priest I've ever talked to has called the Bible the final word, nevermind the fact that there have been whole BOOKS left OUT of the bible that they're finding by translating the old Greek and Hebrew scrolls.
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Post by Crazy Healer Lady » Thu Apr 24, 2008 8:32 am

That's talking the bible, and those that take each word of the bible to be literate truth, as it is the "Word of God." However, Jesus spoke in parables. There is so much confliction in the bible it would appear that God spoke in parables, too, to the people channelling the original texts of the bible.

Therefore, it seems to be that the bible is not to be taken literally. This leaves room for interpretation, and science.

If you take the bible as symbology, science can fit in nicely. For example. the entire "Six Day Creation" can be seen as possibly a symbol of six million years, each million year being a day, which is plausible if God is infinite. Or even longer, because the fact is we don't KNOW how old the world is, and I have no faith in carbon dating, really, although it's the best thing we have.

I think the bible at its foundation CAN be a path to Truth, if you use it correctly and wisely. Fundies, of course, are the idiots who are fascinated with each vein on the leaves and the bugs on those leave, while paying no attention to the forest. However, there are many wise individuals who are at a great state of advancement in spirituality, and call themselves Christian.

So, if the bible is taken literally, yes, there seems to be no room for science or even logic or sense. However, since it appears to me that the bible is NOT to be taken literally, I feel that science and a great deal of Truth can coincide with it.
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Post by Kystar » Thu Apr 24, 2008 10:24 am

It's really all in how you're taught to read the Bible, I guess.

I was taught that it was the literal word of God and that it was exact history, via Divine Source.

There was no interpretations...it was fact.

One of the reasons I basically ran like a rabbit when I had a chance.
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Post by Mahala » Thu Apr 24, 2008 6:19 pm

Hmm, and I wonder where the Book of Mormon fits in. It was only discovered as recently as 200 years ago, so I can see where it might be absolutely faked.

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Post by Crazy Healer Lady » Thu Apr 24, 2008 8:37 pm

I have views on the Book of Mormon, but for the sake of retaining some sort of composure, I will not speak them here.

Luckily I was born into a household with open minds (well, my mom, anyway, around whom my family functioned). My boyfriend was raised to believe - from his all-mighty grandmother and his friends in a fundie little town, and from bible college that the bible was the literal word of God. However, my own channellings and common sense say that is absolutely not true. The word of God, yes, channelled, filtered through man over millenia, corrupted and mutilated for political reasons.

After all, how can you take something LITERALLY that is spoken in parables, and is often conflicting???? That, to me, is the biggest sign that the bible is NOT to be taken literally.

Heck, there were many prophets around, speaking the "Word of God." Not all got it written down. Then Jesus came, and suddenly it was evil to channel God. You're called a heretic. When you actually channel the word of "God" it conflicts strongly with the rules and histories of the bible. When you touch Source, there is nothing but love, and all that you could ever do is beautiful and divine. Tell a Christian you have spoken with God, and for crying out loud, they believe you have spoken with the devil.

Perhaps Judaism and Christianity were once experiential religions, before politics got involved.
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Post by Mahala » Fri Apr 25, 2008 5:31 am

How come God didn't write the Bible then? That might make sense, since it's His word? When He told prophets, they could have gotten it all wrong, and since we don't even truly now what happened, we wouldn't know if it was a joke or hoax. (Something like a medieval computer virus?)

I don't specifically believe the Book of Mormon. Something that was so new, and discovered at a time when anything could pass as a religion is sending up red flags everywhere. (Did Smith ever use opium I wonder...) But I think I've talked about that.

And Jesus... well, how in the heck did Mary conceive if there was no 'physical' father around? I could understand if Joseph's body could have been a vessel, but then the child is his.

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Post by Crazy Healer Lady » Fri Apr 25, 2008 6:51 am

The issue of Mary's virginity is much debated, to the point that I'm sure she must blush! The thing is that the notion of an immaculate conception predates Jesus and was a very important part of many religious stories. Look at the Greek and Roman pantheons, and the way many of them were born. To be born of immaculate conception is the stuff of gods. It is my opinion that this was edited into the four final stories that were settled upon to make the New Testament, but who knows? Unless one were to talk to Jesus himself... :lol:

There are also arguments that Mary Magdalene was Jesus's wife, which also would make sense when you look at some of the rumours, stories, and parts of the bible. If this was true, it would make sense that she would be reduced to the status of a whore before begging for admonishment, because if she represented the Divine Female, she was a threat to a patriarchal society. The sexism of the Romans are not unknown; it's even said that when they came to attack the Celts, there were many arguments amongst the two races of women. "Cassius Dio reports that the wife of the Caledonian chieftain Argentocoxus, when rebuked for her loose morals by Julia Domna the Roman Emperor's wife, retorted, 'We carry out the demands of nature in a far better way than you do Roman women. We consort openly with the best men, while you let yourselves be degraded in secret by the most contemptible." - The Celtic Book of Symbols - Symbols, Stories & Blessings for Everyday Living by Joules Taylor,pg 9

Anyway, getting into Jesus's possible marriage is the stuff of The DaVinci Code and Sylvia Brown, but worth checking into. In the end I suppose it really doesn't matter. All avatars and gods will speak to people in their own way. Sometimes, the bible helps people connect with them. Sometimes, it impedes it, and they spend a life sucking their chakras into their bodies, distorting them all to heck, trying to live a spiritual life smothered by guilt, quite possibly the closest lifestyle to their "Satan," if Satan is to be described as apart from "God."
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Post by Kitsune » Sat Apr 26, 2008 6:35 am

I don't know how many time I have to correct people on this...

Immaculate conception is not impossible!

It's inordiently difficult, but can be done. Therefore, the fact that we have one happen every couple hundred years doesn't bother me at all.

Off hand, for any Stargate fans out there... I love the scene between Tilk and Valla, where Valla gets pregant (immaculately) and asks the group if this has ever happened in their history before. The Americans look at each other uncomfortably for a moment, and then Tilk (alien) jumps in with "Yes... Anakin Skywalker is the best known account of this." :lol: :lol: :lol:

Made me laugh so hard, you have no idea! :-D
Science says "We think this is right, but if we see new evidence, we'll change our minds. Question EVERYTHING."
I personally want to know who believes science is actually like this. I've seen scientists tell other scientists they are straight off wrong simply because they use the wrong terminology to describe what they are studying. Take aura reading (spiritual=fake)... Replace with Kiriian Effect ("simulated electro-photonic response" (glow) of an object) and suddenly it all makes sense! #-o

They're as bad as fundies in their own way!
Trying to create a world, even in words, is good occupational therapy for lunatics who think they're God, and an excellent argument for Polytheism. -S.M. Stirling

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Post by Kystar » Sat Apr 26, 2008 10:32 am

I've worked with a lot of different research offices and groups when I worked for Pitt University.

While they're very narrow-minded in some regards, the one thing that Research Scientists say as a group is "Nothing is written in stone. Even if everyone thinks your idea borders on crazy, research it anyway, you might just have a breakthrough to prove them all wrong."

They DO tend to question everything, even things they themselves proved five months ago.

But, their questioning is usually limited to what gets funded. And the funding is more based on what NON-researchers think is plausible.

Yes, there are scientists out there who are so narrow-minded that they make fundies look tolerant...but my one boss (dental research) said that those are the guys who haven't had a discovery, breakthrough or invention in the last half a century, and they're just devoted to pulling everyone down to their level.
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Post by Kitsune » Tue Apr 29, 2008 7:52 pm

Another case of "some of 'em are, and some of 'em ain't" huh?

I must admit, all the science buffs I know are pretty damn good about it, but they still get stuck in their spaces, where their ability to "disbelieve" is lost, and it moves to a "Not possible" stance real quick after that.

However, I'm more than willing to believe that there is more out there, than is written in heaven and earth, to catch a phrase! :lol:
Trying to create a world, even in words, is good occupational therapy for lunatics who think they're God, and an excellent argument for Polytheism. -S.M. Stirling

http://www.bamatthews.comThe Writings and Musings of B.A. Matthews

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Post by Willow » Wed Apr 30, 2008 3:17 pm

So interesting little fact here.

Some of the most devout religious people I know are in the hard sciences such as physics, chemistry and biology. It is interesting because those careers don't actually lead you to hard questions, either something is right or it is not because science proves it. Whereas the humanities are filled with agnostics because it realizes the inherent ambiguity in everything.

This is a hard topic because there are big generalizations. I know many Christians who would say there are Biblical precedents for questioning. And I agree, I deal with a lot of narrow minded scientists (The ones who say my field of study...religion is useless).
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Re: Talking Science

Post by Ragnar » Wed Apr 30, 2008 6:46 pm

Mahala wrote:Something that often riddles me, since I really like science. How would you possibly explain God? I mean... and Jesus too. A bit impossible. Evolution comes to mind as well, and the first humans, Adam and Eve. Specifically...

- If God and Jesus are everywhere at any given time, how can WE tell?
- How do we know that Satan or God even exist, save for written word?
- How does the Bible deal with evolution? There's a lot of evidence on evolution, so what are we supposed to do, ignore it?
- If Adam and Eve were the only two humans 'making babies', wouldn't we all be brothers and sisters?
I am not christian, therefore why should the question bother me?

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