The Sex Industry & Paganism

Discussions of all things pagan and neo-pagan.
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Windwalker
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Post by Windwalker » Tue Jun 12, 2007 2:13 am

I always go on for so long... :lol:
Lotus wrote: If I am not mistaken, Australia legalized prostitution and unionized it. Maybe someone from there who is on the board can address this.
We legalised it in New Zealand too. The women that do it and speak out say that they are safe, happy, healthy, and wealthy. The prostitutes in liscences brothels are under no obligation to sleep with someone if they don't want to. There are still a fair number of prostitutes that are in dangerous positions: ones on street corners, ones with bad pimps or in unliscenced and unsafe brothels, but for the most part these women are in safe, healthy environments since prostitution became legalised, and that's the main reason that it was done. Prostitution has been called "the oldest profession". It'll happen whether it's legal or not, so it may as well be legal.

There are ads in the paper: Women wanted! Friendly staff! $130 an hour! Full training provided! Honestly, when you're broke, and there are so few jobs, that sort of thing starts to look attractive ;)

I say, do what makes you happy. If sleeping with a different person every night makes you happy, good for you. It raises your chances of STDs and you could wind up with someone dangerous, but if you're sleeping with someone new every night that sort of thing might not bother you. Which is fine with me. I don't believe that you always leave a part of yourself with the man you are with. I don't feel that sex should only be something you do when you're in love. When sex stops being fun and empowering and starts being an addiction or a problem, then maybe you should reasses your sex life. Likewise, when you're addicted to crystal meth and sleeping in a cardboard box, you might want to think about working through your drug problems. But if you're happy being stoned 24/7, then go for it. It's your life, and it's your body, and it's none of my business what you do with it.

I can't go around saying that someone has a problem because they are a stripper or a prostitute or a slut. I don't believe that. Many of these people are wealthy women with a good home, well-adjusted kids, and an understanding partner. Not all of them, not most of them, but many of them. So I can't look at a prostitute and think "she has some problems" or "she should get out of that industry while she still can", because that's unfair of me. After all, I am poor and she just got her kids into private school.

Now, personally, I am not in favour of girls going around with skirts the length of belts and sleeping with the first guy to smile at them. That, to me, lacks a certain amount of class. But they might find the concept of hanging from the ceiling with hooks through your skin to be an undesirable one. Personally, I think suspensions are awesome, but they can think I'm gross for it if they want. Likewise, they can do what they want and wear what they want and charge however much they want. It's nothing to do with me. I would happily go and watch "Manpower Australia" and feel absolutely no guilt or dirtiness about watching hot hot men take off all their clothes for my viewing pleasure. (Oh my, yes.) I have no problems with hiring a stripper for a mate's hen's night or something. Is it so different for female strippers? I don't think so. It's a bit more dangerous, admittedly, but no different from a moral perspective.

Conclusion: the sex industry might well be at odds with some views of Paganism. It's not with my own. It's not really related to my own in any way... I feel everyone should be able to do what they want to do. I know many women (and men) are not doing what they want to do, and can't get out of it. That is unfortunate, and I hope they find the strength to get out. Otherwise? Not relevant. As a woman, doing what you want and being happy with yourself and your sexuality is the important part, not the actions you take.[/b]
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fatale
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Post by fatale » Tue Jun 12, 2007 5:21 am

Prostitution definately should be legalized. It would help the workers and the customes.
In Germany prostitution is legal, but it is kinda tipping to the other extreme. Even the unemployment offices try to put women who lost their job into a brothel, rather than paying unemployment money. One office even went to far to cancel one girls financial support completely because she refused to work as a prostitute. By law, you can only turn down 3 (I thihnk it's three) jobs offered by the unemployment services. If you don't take one, they can cancel your money! The woman field law suit with the European Union and she won!
I could not be a prostitute. I think it would make me feel horrible, used - like a tooth brush or a toilet. hop on, business, hop off!
And porn movies - what's to say about this? Does any woman want to be portrait like this? Or any man for that matter? Could these movies be any further off reality? I have yet to meet a woman eager to rip off her clothes and spread her legs as soon as a man enters the room. And that's just the mainstream porn!

As for the stripping - I don't understand how it can be empowering - somebody waves money at the girl and tells her what to do, how to move, what to show ...
It was good money at the time, but I know for a fact many of the girls I worked with did "business on the side", some were on drugs.

(I'm happy with my life now and the experience sure helped me in my personal development, but it's nothing I'm proud of. Besides, I still dont' understand why guys paid to see me naked - I was a skinny stick with no boobs! I think I'm way more attractive and sexy now than I ever was during my time in the clubs!)

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fatale
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Post by fatale » Tue Jun 12, 2007 5:25 am

Windwalker wrote: Women wanted! Friendly staff! $130 an hour! Full training provided!
I wonder about the training! :lol:

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Post by white_harmony » Tue Jun 12, 2007 2:15 pm

Lotus wrote:If I am not mistaken, Australia legalized prostitution and unionized it. Maybe someone from there who is on the board can address this.
I think we have, but I'm not too sure lol. Now I'm curious, I'm gonna go and check it out lol.
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Post by Greenleaf » Tue Jun 12, 2007 6:02 pm

here is a link with some sobering statistics on prostitutes and/or strippers:

http://www.chicagohomeless.org/PART/prosresearch.pdf
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Post by Ragnar » Tue Jun 12, 2007 9:38 pm

fatale wrote: In Germany prostitution is legal, but it is kinda tipping to the other extreme. Even the unemployment offices try to put women who lost their job into a brothel, rather than paying unemployment money. One office even went to far to cancel one girls financial support completely because she refused to work as a prostitute. By law, you can only turn down 3 (I thihnk it's three) jobs offered by the unemployment services. If you don't take one, they can cancel your money! The woman field law suit with the European Union and she won!
I can conmfirm that.

Makes you wonder what the Sachbearbeiterin does for her "Nebenjob". :lol:

And, given the present hooha in Sachsen, WHO she is paid by.

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Post by Jescissa » Wed Jun 13, 2007 1:23 am

Greenleaf wrote:Does that strike any one else but me as odd? Why would a presumably college age girl be hanging out at ti**y bars? Does she work there, or is "she" a troll?
I'm sure a lot of women like going there...but I think one of the main reasons is that she's bisexual!
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Post by Kitsune » Wed Jun 13, 2007 10:17 am

The energy is defined by the people who frequent there, workers & guests...

Some places like the French Maid Chinook have an awesome energy about them. The girls like being there, there's pool on the side, good menu. The men prefer seeing the women work to impress them, and thus pay more. The energy is more akin to a rompy fun night of sex with a buddy... No strings attached...

There's another French maid, Downtown, and the energy there is rotten, the girls don't want to be there, the guys all choose dark corners to sit in, and even the waitresses are down on their luck and in an argumentative mood.

The difference is astounding... I'll go into the french maid Chinook for the atmosphere or to hang out with friends for a while... even though my bi-sexual tendencies are so infintessimal as to be non-existant! :lol:

Whereas, the only reason I'll walk into the same building as the Downtown location, is because I'm meeting friends there, and even then, I'll wait outside unless it freezing cold.

It's all in the energy, and as we all know, sometimes we just want certain types of energy... explainably why or not! :-)
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Post by forgotten oceans » Fri Jun 15, 2007 7:30 am

I knew a girl once who was a stripper, and she couldn't be happier about it, she loved her job, her co workers, the whole nine yards, something about never feeling so liberated and safe all at the same time.

I personaly think strip clubs are ok, but I love burlesque shows!!! Just something about the energy of a good show, nothing better to make you feel like painting the town red.

As to women turning trix, I too think it should be legal, something like in the movie Sin City would be good.

Women will always be second class citizens, they will always be viewed as sex symbols, it's nice to think that things were different a long time ago, it's nice to think that things are different now and/or things will be different in years to come. Think back, the only reason women 'won' the right to vote is because white women voting was still better then blacks voting, (not trying to be racist, just stating USA history). The only reason women can work today is because of WW2, someone had to make bullets, someone had the keep the home fires burning while the boys were at war. If it wasn't for desprate times, women wouldn't have come as far as they have. It's nice to think we've won, but really if you look hard enough, you start to realize it was all laid in our laps. Don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining, but I don't look at it as enthusiasticly as most people.

Besides, be honest, all you ladies on the board, how many of you have used sex to your advantage, flirting alittle, turning on the charm, or just the shear fact you're a girl. At some point or another odds are you've done it, I have, lots, and I know I'm not alone. Women have used sex for many years, when it stops working so well, women will stop using it. When my screw driver breaks, I'll go buy a drill set. ;P
Maybe now you're starting to understand that while I may have been born predispositioned to be pretty batty, my parents saw to it that it was a certainty and completely unavoidable. -Me

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Post by Kitsune » Fri Jun 15, 2007 11:27 am

I spent so many years with such a low self esteem, that it didn't even occur to me until a few years ago that bus drivers and waiters were more polite or helpful because I'm female.

Now, I'm guilty of using it to get my driver to let me off between stops and other little things every once in a while... :lol:

But I always try to insist that men should be able to get this sort of help too... It should be done just because they're fellow people and polite, and deserve the extra little bit done on our part every once in a while.
Trying to create a world, even in words, is good occupational therapy for lunatics who think they're God, and an excellent argument for Polytheism. -S.M. Stirling

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Post by Crazy Healer Lady » Fri Jun 15, 2007 11:57 am

Honestly... never. I play coy and yadda yadda with my boyfriend, but we joke about that stuff all the time.

I'm really actually quite gruff... I've only started being more "feminine" in the last year, mostly because my partner accentuates it, and is masculine, and likes to make me feel little. What bugs me is when he - knowing it bugs me, and doing it only BECAUSE it bugs me - teases me about not being as strong as him and oooo the little girl can't get her pen back - at which point I either grab another pen or tackle him and get it back.

But honestly, noooo... I don't use being female to my advantage. I notice no difference. I notice people are different when I am NICE to them - I always try to be lighthearted and such when dealing with people, because THAT more than being female will make them respond favourably!!!
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Post by Willow » Mon Jun 18, 2007 5:06 am

I think all men do that, annoy because they can, as my SO says "You're cute when you are PO'd"

There isn't so much a female bias in academia anymore, the problem is a family bias. The professors where I did my master's were all male or gay or single females, onlyy one out of ten profs had kids.

Needles tos ay, I want a family and I think I will be pretty ticked about that blow to my career.

As for using femaleness to my advantage....hass anyone seen shrek three where the donkey tries to be cute like puss in boots? That is about the reaction I get when I try to be feminine LOL. :lol:
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Post by Jescissa » Mon Jun 18, 2007 9:04 am

forgotten oceans wrote:Think back, the only reason women 'won' the right to vote is because white women voting was still better then blacks voting, (not trying to be racist, just stating USA history).
More scary US history...I never imagined it was that bad...!

Women won the right to vote in the UK as a reward for women's work during the great war. Women put aside the militant campaign for the vote and supported the men who went off to fight. The government were so impressed that they gave women the right to vote same as the men who actually fought in the battlefield.
forgotten oceans wrote:Besides, be honest, all you ladies on the board, how many of you have used sex to your advantage, flirting alittle, turning on the charm, or just the shear fact you're a girl.
To be honest, I actually haven't. I was the runt of my year at school, I'm still pretty tiny for my age now too and I didn't believe it if boys did find me attractive in school, I always thought they were doing it to laugh at me. So no, I've not used sex or flirting to get ahead, I've done it myself. If anything I've been underestimated because I'm a short person, rather than a female. (But the short thing is a whole other discussion :lol:)
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Post by Ragnar » Mon Jun 18, 2007 10:08 pm

Jescissa wrote: Women won the right to vote in the UK as a reward for women's work during the great war.
And to stop them ruining any more horse races. :-D

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Post by Windwalker » Thu Jun 21, 2007 5:09 pm

Ragnar wrote:
Jescissa wrote: Women won the right to vote in the UK as a reward for women's work during the great war.
And to stop them ruining any more horse races. :-D
:lol: :lol: :lol:

I don't know why we won the right to vote so early. If I was going to hazard a guess, it would probably be that being as the country was so young in the 1890s it was impossible to do anything without the women. And so when the women stood back and said "you can grow your own food, mend your own clothes, feed your own kids, populate your own land, and build your own bloody country" the men didn't have too much of a choice. :-D Or maybe it was just a "look! look how forward-thinking we are! yay us!" sort of thing.
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