The equal of sinning in Wicca- is there one?

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Kystar
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Post by Kystar » Mon Apr 02, 2007 3:03 am

I disagree.

I think in order to send engery out in that manner that you have to make the concious decision to do so. That simply venting out your frustration in a normal human manner isn't sending out an attack. If this was so, half the world's population would be steril, deaf, blind and drooling in the corner somewhere.

Humans have a LOT of coping mechinisms, and base instincts that don't mesh with higher thought. Imagining exerting dominiance over a person who goes against your animal instincts is natural.

I really think that unless it's actively and conciously done, it says in your imagination. Yeah, your life's a little darker around the edges b/c your mind stays in the shadows, but that's how some ppl work best. Not once have I observed any negativity affect anyone I disliked enough to want to think such things about in an active way that I could trace back to myself. Nor, have I really had anything come back to me from it.

The Divine KNOW that we are fundementally animals, and make allowances for our territorial behavoir and dominance plays.
You say "Witch" like it's a bad thing!

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Post by Jescissa » Mon Apr 02, 2007 3:36 am

Kystar wrote:The Divine KNOW that we are fundementally animals, and make allowances for our territorial behavoir and dominance plays.
I think we'll have to agree to disagree :-D Even if thinking negatively doesn't hurt someone else, it still hurts you and the divine love you to pieces and don't want to see you destroy yourself.

There are more people than ever living with depression, we're constantly made to compare ourselves with others, to try and match up to some social ideal. We're encouraged to be jealous of others, and to fight our way to the top. We're encouraged to think about number one, first and foremost. Even if thinking negatively about the person who stands in your way doesn't hurt them, it makes you feel awful.

Jealousy does consume you, negativity eats away at you...and thinking of killing someone is negative. Concentrating on all a person's horrible aspects and trying to kill someone in your daydreams is not a nice thing and you will suffer terribly from it. I know I did. I hated my boyfriend's ex-girlfriend for years, I didn't want her dead, I wanted her wiped from history...she lived in Scotland so I had no idea whether what I felt affected her, but it certainly affected me. Nothing could lift the negativity around me, I was ill, I wasn't a fun person to be around. My negative thoughts isolated me and I was seriously depressed.

I've made a conscious decision to leave my jealous side alone. I know it's there and I will have to battle with it again, but I've come through it. So yes, speaking from personal experience, negative thoughts can consume you and make you extremely ill and turn you into a person you really don't want to become.
"If you trust in yourself and believe in your dreams and follow your star...you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy. Goodbye." - Miss Tick, Terry Pratchett's Wee Free Men

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Willow
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Post by Willow » Mon Apr 02, 2007 5:42 am

I find that negative thinking hurts me. If I can't deal with a problem then I wind up ruminating it until it takes over my life. And that is no good.

Ialso feel bad when I think bad thoughts about people. It only makes me feel better once, then I start to wonder why I am wasting time even putting the negative into my head.

Interesting debate though. Good question sagewolf.
Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
Dr. Seuss (1904 - 1991)

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Post by SageWolf » Mon Apr 02, 2007 2:20 pm

Yeah but we are human, the divine know this, and to think bad thoughts as long as you don't make them manfest, It's a stress relief, If you don't relieve the stress then there is a higher possibilty that the negative energy you are feeling towards that person, or people, will open negative happenings for that person, which can cause serious backlash, To relieve stress is ok but to intentionally harm someone is not ok.

SageWolf
To Error is Human, To really foul things up Requires a Computer.

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Jescissa
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Post by Jescissa » Mon Apr 02, 2007 2:29 pm

Perhaps punching someone in your mind's eye isn't so bad...but plotting their demise definitely is bad! Letting bad feelings go is so much better for you than dwelling on how bad someone else makes you feel. There is a guy on my course I cannot stand, he makes my flesh crawl, but I don't waste time and energy wanting him dead. By actively imagining the death of someone annoying you're elevating them, you're making them important enough to you to want them dead. If you hate them and don't want anything to do with them, why waste mental time on them at all?

Bad thoughts are manifest just as much as good thoughts. It's a two-way street. Intent is everything. If your mind just wanders on to it and wanders away again, it's a flight of fancy, there's no harm in it, but if you actively plot it all out in your mind...that's certainly not good. You're raising harmful energy by actively thinking it through.
"If you trust in yourself and believe in your dreams and follow your star...you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy. Goodbye." - Miss Tick, Terry Pratchett's Wee Free Men

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Post by daibanjo » Mon Apr 02, 2007 5:48 pm

Hi; thought i'd drop by with a notion or two. :-)
First let's define good and evil somewhat. Not dictionary definitions but looking at them from where we are;
Good; Building and aiding in the growth of people, things, emotions, and spirituality.
Evil; Destroying and helping to destroy people, things, emotions and spirituality.
Though evil sounds bad, often destruction clears the way for new growth and this board is full of people who say that the worse experience they had was the one that gave them the most growth. There are no good or evil acts, only acts. For example; Sticking a knife in someone, Is it good or bad?
Well, what if it's done by a surgeon with the intent to heal?
No act of itself is good or bad. it's only the intent.
As for consequences I can only speak from the tradition that I was raised in.
Everything we do has a consequence and it's these consequences that keep us tied to the cycle of life and death. There is no judgement day and no supreme being demands you receive punishment or reward. The universe works on a law of cause and effect so we are here because of past actions. That includes "Good" as well as "Evil" actions because everything has an effect and those effects tie us to the wheel of life and death.
The only way to loose ourselves is to live in such a way that we do not disturb the fabric of the universe, to leave no footprints but to move through life easily and unattached.
That brings me to those angry emotions we've been discussing. of course we feel pain, anger and some terrible emotions. We feel love, gratitude and some pretty wonderful emotions also. The idea is to live your life like the wind. The wind moves around the Earth picking up scents. Some pleasant and some unpleasant, but the wind picks them up, carries them for a short while, then lets them go. Through it all the wind is still just the wind.
So those feelings you get, just observe them. Like, "Oh, I'm feeling hate, how interesting." Just observe and they won't seem so bad and you can move on just being who you really are.
As for sin, I'm not good with traditional definitions of that. All my life I have truly been Goddess blessed, a truly charmed llife. In spite of the old Welsh pastor who said;
"That boy just takes delight in his wickedness." :-D
It'll be all right in the end. If it's not all right, it's not the end.

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Post by Windwalker » Mon Apr 02, 2007 10:38 pm

Okay, I'll throw my hat into the discussion as well.

Now, I don't believe in karma or the threefold law, or anything of that nature. I do believe that if enough people bad-wish you, then something unfortunate will come your way.

Say you're in a bad mood because a woman at work doesn't treat you with respect. Instead of dealing with your emotions towards her, her actions put you in a bad mood. You're driving home, anger in your veins, and as a result of your anger you drive just that little bit more erratically. You're spending your time ruminating on what a total cow that woman is, and you're not paying attention to the traffic properly. You cut someone off, or you don't indicate, or you run a red light. No one is hurt, but at least one person will curse at you and hope something mildly unpleasant will happen to you (all you drivers out there have done the same thing to a stupid driver, admit it!) or even that something extremely unpleasant will happen to you.

If enough people wish you bad fortune, I think you'll get it. But, I don't think it's your thoughts alone that cause that bad fortune.

Personally, if someone reeeeally annoys me, I will imagine myself doing something extremely violent to them. After this visualisation, I will feel a good deal more cheerful and my day won't be too disturbed by that complete moron, total b*tch or arrogant boss. I keep these visualisations internal. I differentiate this visualisation from actually hoping something bad happens to a person. (I've done that too, of course.)

Then there are the two or three people who have really made my life miserable. I hated them once, and I hate them now. I hate them less now, because time has passed and healed some wounds and I no longer have to deal with them every day. I'm generally a nice person. It takes a great deal to make me hate you, but once I do, don't expect me to stop any time soon ;) Despite this, I haven't had any sort of karmic backlash. Who's my favourite misanthrope... well, I'm a big fan of Ambrose Bierce, but since he disappeared off the face of the earth I don't think he's a very good example of how contempt for humanity doesn't harm you. Hmm.

Having said that, hating someone doesn't make you happy. Not at all. But it needn't bother you if the person isn't around. You don't need to ruminate on how very much you loathe that individual. And I know, ladies, that there are times during That Time of the Month that being angry and mean feels so, so good. Mwahaha. Of course, no goddess could hold that against you, so I don't suppose it counts.

Of course, I could very well be wrong. But I'm of the opinion that if you expect bad luck, you will get it... or at least, you'll interpret things as being bad luck, whether or not they're any different to how things are normally. This is one of the reasons I'm a bit of a skeptic as far as the threefold law goes. I like the return of energy one better: what you give out affects the world, and the world, in turn, affects you. Sometimes you give out bad, and as a result of things happening, what you get back is good. C'est la vie.

There is no reason for you to imagine unpleasant things happening to people if you don't want to. But the introduction to Johnny the Homicidal Maniac sums it up rather well: the beast within needs its pain-food. (You know the one... the beast that Vimes keeps chained up in the dark, and only lets out when he needs it.) If you don't toss your beast a bone once in a while, in the form of a violent movie or fantasy, it might break out of those chains and into real life. Imagining smashing someone's face in with a spanner is better than doing nothing, and then one day snapping and really smashing someone's face in with a spanner.
si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes

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morgana
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Post by morgana » Tue Apr 03, 2007 3:02 am

And this is why I love Quentin Tarantino movies. 8-)
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Post by iriseyes » Tue Apr 03, 2007 3:30 am

This is truly interesting to me.. For I have a couple of people that I really have hatrid for.. One cause he used to terrorise me when I was with him.. My X was horrible, smacking, pushing, yelling, broke me down mentally, so I tend to have very ill feelings for him and find my self in my mind tearing him to pieces.. Literally, and I feel justified. Does that make me bad???

The other person is greedy, selfish and a real cold hard b*&^% and does things to intupt my life and make my boyfriends life hell.. The thought of binding came here but I think she can do more damage to everything if I just let her alone.. Does this make me bad to?

I end up with unfortunate events.. is the above the cause?? I have thougth so at times..
To thine own self be true.

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Willow
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Post by Willow » Tue Apr 03, 2007 5:09 am

Interesting, I guess I deal with things a little differently. Thinking hateful thoughts just brings me down. Unfortunately I am not a very good outside observer of my own emotions. Maybe that is something I should think about.

But I do agree that intent is more important than action. I think we have to be careful, sometimes interfereing with good intent can do more harm than good (Ahem, world politicians take notice!)
Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
Dr. Seuss (1904 - 1991)

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fatale
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Post by fatale » Tue Apr 03, 2007 10:01 am

SageWolf wrote: I am asking this because, there are times when I have met people who I don't like and get to know that person and I just hate them, You will remember in previous posts I've had problems with a co-worker I've never wished her harm but that never stopped me from evil Ninja monkeys plotting her demise.

So I was wondering about that, Can your thoughts make it where you get the 3 fold law?

SageWolf
I believe you can plot out whatever you want in your (day) dreams as long a you don't act out on it - gosh, I so often dreamed to turn some ppl into frogs and toads :lol:
It feels good - kinda like cussing out the driver who cuts you off, it doesn't hurt him and makes you feel better instantly!

Still, I think you waste time and energy on hating people and in the end you'll only hurt yourself - maybe that's a way "karma" gets you! you know, if you're too preoccupied with being an evil genious, good things might be lost for you!

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fatale
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Post by fatale » Tue Apr 03, 2007 10:03 am

obviously, I didn't read Windwalker's response! :lol:

btw, I pm the poem to you! (der Zauberlehrling)

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