Wicca or neo-paganism vs. Satanism

This area is for the INTELLIGENT discussion of all other religions, be it Christianity, Buddhist, Hindu, Native American, or anything else!
User avatar
Lotus
Level 27
Level 27
Posts: 782
Joined: Thu May 06, 2004 9:47 am
Location: Somewhere over the rainbow
Zodiac: Aries
Contact:

Wicca or neo-paganism vs. Satanism

Post by Lotus » Sun Oct 15, 2006 3:59 pm

Now, I am a "pagan" who uses the terms "ceremonial magican" or "kemetic magician" to self describe. By default, I do fall back to wicca since it was my first path.....so, I cannot really speak for wiccans.

Occasionally there is this debate that Satanist (all forms including the Anton LaVey style ones) are our (right handed practicioners) brethern.
While some people can see the clear differences but, believe wicca and satanism to be kissing cousins of sorts.

I personally think that there is a (and needs to be) clear distinction between wicca and satanism.
Many satanist view wiccans, pagans, or any right-handed practicioner with distain. For the most part, we are their cannon fodder. They enjoy us RHP to fight their battles for them.
One such battle (for example) is getting the Wiccan penticle on the gravestones from the VA. Although, there have been *no* satanists from any organization stepping forward to get their pentagram on headstones...they expect us to fight for them since we are fighting the battle already.
Also, there are huge ideological shifts between the two groups.

Wiccans or pagans for the most part follow a religion of peace and love. We follow the "harm none" sort of lifestyle. We could, for the most part, care less about christianity.
A Satanist one the other hand is very selfish. They care so much about christianity that the whole scope of their belief is to mock it.

Well, here is the question:
Should Satanist be included with pagans and/or Wiccans? Does there need to be made a huge distinction between the two? Should wiccans or pagans emphatically proclaim, "Oh, no, I am not a Satanist" or should we say, "hey, they are our bros"?

BB
Lotus
I have not been the same since that house fell on my sister.

User avatar
Stormy
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 733
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2004 6:11 pm
Location: Pittsburgh Area, PA
Contact:

Post by Stormy » Sun Oct 15, 2006 4:23 pm

I myself believe that they are in no way, shape or form Pagans. As you said, they are the exact opposit of what Pagan religions follow in general - a peaceful, caring path. I do not think they should EVER be lumped in with Wiccans and Pagans - they are Satanists and I believe they should stand alone AND fight their own battles. It is THEY who give ALL of US a bad rap and a bad name amongst the masses who don't know the difference.
Stormy ~~}~}-:>
Aut viam inveniam aut faciam

User avatar
Crazy Healer Lady
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 3589
Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2005 6:31 pm
Location: Mission, BC
Zodiac: Libra
Contact:

Post by Crazy Healer Lady » Sun Oct 15, 2006 4:49 pm

Hmmm. I can't remember the last time I saw a Satanist worship Nature... *refers to the literal meaning of Pagan*
Crazy Healer Lady
Health and happiness to you!

The purpose of a relationship is not to have another who might complete you, but to have another with whom you might share your completeness. -CWG

User avatar
Kitsune
Level 70
Level 70
Posts: 2097
Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2006 12:33 pm
Location: Calgary, Canada
Zodiac: Capricorn
Contact:

Post by Kitsune » Sun Oct 15, 2006 4:51 pm

The Satanists, cannot be called pagan for their beliefs any more than we could call Christians pagan for their beliefs.

They fight their battles, we fight ours. Simple as that.
Trying to create a world, even in words, is good occupational therapy for lunatics who think they're God, and an excellent argument for Polytheism. -S.M. Stirling

http://www.bamatthews.comThe Writings and Musings of B.A. Matthews

User avatar
Rain ForestMoon
Level 11
Level 11
Posts: 314
Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2004 2:13 am
Location: Australia
Contact:

Post by Rain ForestMoon » Sun Oct 15, 2006 5:16 pm

In my opinion Satanism is a heresy of Christianity. As such it is in no way connected with what we understand as Paganism.

Generally, related to this subject, I think it is important to remember that just because two religions have some similarities in some forms of practice, this does not mean that they have a common heritage.
For expample the monastic from of worship and (sometimes associated) chanting is common both to Buddhism and Christianity - in the Orthodox and Catholic traditions, anyway. Despite these similarites no-one would conclude that Christiany and Buddhism are very closely related cousins.
RainForestMoon

"Excess of anything is bad, but especially the excess of Moderation"

"AQUILA NON CAPIT MUSCAS'

User avatar
morgana
Level 22
Level 22
Posts: 650
Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2003 7:42 am
Location: Florida
Contact:

Post by morgana » Sun Oct 15, 2006 6:17 pm

Hmm, well yes and no. SHOULD they be lumped in with Pagans? Probably not as it is a completely different belief system, but they ARE because by the Christian definition of the word "pagan" all belief systems that aren't the "Big 3" (ie Christianity, Judaism and Islam) are classified as pagan.

I personally have nothing wrong with people who choose to be Satanists, and so I don't get too upset if someone casually throws us in under the same heading. I simply correct them and try to explain the differences.

Funny that Lotus mentioned Satanists looking at us with disdain, as I have a Satanist friend who claims that WE look at THEM that way. I think it comes from both sides. Honestly, I try to be open-minded with people of all belief systems, but I will admit to thinking the worst of Satanism at first.

When you look at Lavey Satanism (the only kind I know much about) on the surface, it does indeed look very selfish and self-centered, and some of it's members unfortunately don't get past that surface level, which unfortunately causes bad PR for them as a group (much like the all too common "crazy pagans" that come up in the news). BUT when you look beyond that surface level, there are some very basic human laws that most people tend to follow whether they consciously acknowledge it or not, such as protecting oneself and his/her close family and friends, regardless of cost. Not a direct quote mind you, but I do remember reading one of the laws that said essentially the same thing.

At any rate, though it's definitely NOT the belief system for me, I won't automatically segregate myself from Satanists. And truly, though we may be "fighting their battles for them" we are also fighting battles for many other unrecognized beliefs, because as we bring the world to more open-mindedness about our beliefs, it gradually becomes more open-minded about other beliefs in general, and that's not really such a bad thing.
"Love like you've never been hurt."

User avatar
Windwalker
Level 20
Level 20
Posts: 594
Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2006 11:01 pm
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Contact:

Post by Windwalker » Sun Oct 15, 2006 8:12 pm

morgana wrote: And truly, though we may be "fighting their battles for them" we are also fighting battles for many other unrecognized beliefs, because as we bring the world to more open-mindedness about our beliefs, it gradually becomes more open-minded about other beliefs in general, and that's not really such a bad thing.

I'm happy to fight people's battles for them. For example, I'm not gay, but I'll fight tooth and nail if someone tries to deny gay people the same rights as anyone else.

There is quote I came across somewhere that reads "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend with my life your right to say it." Basically, if they give Pagans the right to put their pentacle on veteran gravestones - as they damn well should - then they should give Satanists that same right. And if Satanists don't want to fight this battle for whatever reason (and let's face it, if anyone is thought badly of for their religion, it's Satanists, so if they want to keep their heads down that's cool with me) then I will help fight for that right for them.

I don't mind Satanists. Being of a somewhat darker turn of mind in general, had I not felt so powerfully drawn to Paganism that may have been the path I took. (I'm right happy as a Pagan, though, and will never change :-D ) They can be as selfish as they want, although it's kinda an anachronism nowadays to just look out for number one. In order to do that now you have to look after the environment and so on, not just yourself.

:headbang: You gotta fight for your right to paaaarrrtay! :headbang:
si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes

User avatar
SageWolf
Level 24
Level 24
Posts: 716
Joined: Mon Sep 25, 2006 8:20 pm
Location: Missouri
Contact:

Post by SageWolf » Sun Oct 15, 2006 8:26 pm

I've posted this site before at another topic but I felt I should post it here, It's a great upcoming event for Pagans in the USA http://www.pentaclemagazine.org/pn760/i ... e&sid=1927

As for my veiw I believe as well that Satanism is a Christian Religion not a pagan one, Satan was Created by Christians to convert the Old ones to one religion so in my Veiw It's just a spin off of Christianity.

What Upsets me is the fact that people lump us from the same pot, WE ARE NOT SATANIST. In a world where Eduacation is everything I'm amazed at how uneducated people are. (more closeminded then uneducated but they act uneducated so..) I have been rufused service because someone has seen my pentacle and I've been fired from a job for the same reason, and it still amazes me when it happens. If we are allowed our own religion as according to the Constitution, and all that good stuff, Why is it intolerated? I've come to the conclusion, they are scared of us. Not because they don't understand us thats only part, They know that if for a moment they doubt that one God is all there is then the whole world will end,But they are also scared that they know the truth, that ours was the first religion ( can't remember the actual name) and that if we actually become recognized as a real religion that their little comfortable world is numbered and they don't like that.

Well thats my thoughts, Hope I make sense,

SageWolf
To Error is Human, To really foul things up Requires a Computer.

unknown as far as I know

User avatar
Windwalker
Level 20
Level 20
Posts: 594
Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2006 11:01 pm
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Contact:

Post by Windwalker » Sun Oct 15, 2006 8:52 pm

SageWolf wrote:ours was the first religion
I admit confusion. I mean, technically you can say that any pre-christian religion was "Pagan" because that's what the monotheists called them, but I still struggle to see them as the same thing. Maybe Asatru comes close because they really attempt to reproduce the original belief structure and so forth (as far as I can tell, anyway - please forgive ignorance on the subject) but who knows what the first religion was?

Perhaps all our Jungian archetypes come from beliefs shared before the homo sapiens' first out-of-Africa movement, and spread throughout the world. But then again, maybe not.

I think I probably misinterpreted - what were you referring to? (I know you say you forgot the name which isn't helpful at all ;) )
si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes

User avatar
SageWolf
Level 24
Level 24
Posts: 716
Joined: Mon Sep 25, 2006 8:20 pm
Location: Missouri
Contact:

Post by SageWolf » Sun Oct 15, 2006 8:55 pm

Let me do some research I'll see what I can find, I believe it was something Like Druidism or maybe it was Druidism, I am not sure, Like I said I'll research it.

SageWolf
To Error is Human, To really foul things up Requires a Computer.

unknown as far as I know

User avatar
SageWolf
Level 24
Level 24
Posts: 716
Joined: Mon Sep 25, 2006 8:20 pm
Location: Missouri
Contact:

Post by SageWolf » Sun Oct 15, 2006 9:21 pm

Ok I looked around alittle I hope this helps alittle bit, I wasn't sure if you wanted the first oraganized religion or just religion in Genral, but this is so far what I've found.

SageWolf

http://www.telesterion.com/catal1.htm
To Error is Human, To really foul things up Requires a Computer.

unknown as far as I know

User avatar
Rain ForestMoon
Level 11
Level 11
Posts: 314
Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2004 2:13 am
Location: Australia
Contact:

Post by Rain ForestMoon » Sun Oct 15, 2006 10:04 pm

Windwalker wrote:[ Maybe Asatru comes close because they really attempt to reproduce the original belief structure and so forth (as far as I can tell, anyway - please forgive ignorance on the subject) but who knows what the first religion was?
Where is Ragnar when you need him? (does anyone know where he's gone, btw?)

He says, and I believe him, that his religion (Asratu) has been handed down to him in an un-broken line. Nothing reproductionist about that.

We must be careful not to believe just anything that other religions say about Paganism.

As for me, my particular branch is Animism.
So primitive a form of Paganism, and so old that some would not even class it as a religion, but a proto-religion. (OK, so I'm not descended from an unbroken line of Animists :-) , but there is certainly nothing re-constructionist about it...)
RainForestMoon

"Excess of anything is bad, but especially the excess of Moderation"

"AQUILA NON CAPIT MUSCAS'

User avatar
SageWolf
Level 24
Level 24
Posts: 716
Joined: Mon Sep 25, 2006 8:20 pm
Location: Missouri
Contact:

Post by SageWolf » Sun Oct 15, 2006 10:09 pm

I think all and all some form of Paganism is the first form of religion organized or otherwise,and you could be right, I think Earth Goddess or something close to that is one of the first, who knows? I don't, I will look some more.

SageWolf
To Error is Human, To really foul things up Requires a Computer.

unknown as far as I know

User avatar
Rain ForestMoon
Level 11
Level 11
Posts: 314
Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2004 2:13 am
Location: Australia
Contact:

Post by Rain ForestMoon » Mon Oct 16, 2006 1:18 am

talking about Satanis, I've just come across this in the online version of "The Australian" newspaper:

Couple charged over satanic goat slaughter
16oct06
A MAN and a woman have been charged over the suspected satanic ritual slaughter of a goat in a Brisbane church.
Police said the beheaded goat was found inside the Bellbowrie Community Church, on Moggill Road, Bellbowrie, in Brisbane's west, at 5.30am (AEST) on Saturday by a construction worker.
Investigations led detectives to addresses at Acacia Ridge and Coorparoo in Brisbane's south.
It is alleged animal remains were located in the freezer at the Coorparoo home as well as a stolen headstone from a graveyard.
A 27-year-old man was arrested today at a Runcorn home in Brisbane's south and a 25-year-old woman was arrested at a city business.
Both were charged with stealing, unlawful entry and killing an animal.
No court date had been set for the pair, who tonight were in the Brisbane police watchhouse.
It's alleged the church, which is under construction, had been broken into.
A group of people had been seen near a convenience store in nearby Kenmore taking pictures of themselves with what looked like a goat's head about 1.30am on Saturday.
Police suspect the animal may have been killed for a satanic ritual.


I have the following observations:
Ritual killing of animals may be part of some Pagan rituals, but they are chiefly part of forms of Paganism no longer practiced.
Ritual killing of animals was performed regularly by Jews in pre-Christian times.

From that perspective, this ritual (if indeed it is part of Satanism) might have it's roots anywhere or nowhere.

But the fact that it was performed in a Christian Church (under construction - on really has to wonder: what were they thinking of
;) ) would seem to be reasonable evidence of my conviction that Satanism is a heresy of Christianity.
RainForestMoon

"Excess of anything is bad, but especially the excess of Moderation"

"AQUILA NON CAPIT MUSCAS'

User avatar
Windwalker
Level 20
Level 20
Posts: 594
Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2006 11:01 pm
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Contact:

Post by Windwalker » Mon Oct 16, 2006 2:39 am

Rain ForestMoon wrote:He says, and I believe him, that his religion (Asratu) has been handed down to him in an un-broken line. Nothing reproductionist about that.

As for me, my particular branch is Animism.
So primitive a form of Paganism, and so old that some would not even class it as a religion, but a proto-religion.

Forgive me, Ragnar (wherever you are), I have been corrected! Not reproduced, then, but preserved! (Which is pretty cool.)

I too am an animist, but I choose not to think of it as a religion or proto-religion, but more a spiritual philosophy, in a way. It's something I picked up from shamanism that I realised I'd been trying to ignore all along.
si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests