Religious Indifference

This area is for the INTELLIGENT discussion of all other religions, be it Christianity, Buddhist, Hindu, Native American, or anything else!
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Tagwen
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Post by Tagwen » Tue Mar 21, 2006 3:40 pm

Alright am also late; however, am still going to try and touch most of your criteria.

1. Islams are suppose to kill everybody?
their holy book says to kill every one that doesn't follow their religion and then to have their way with the captured women

Sorry but your mistaken, the current delama in Mesopotamian rebellions is because there are 2 copies of the Koran: #1 says kill all the infidels = rebellions
#2 Says that phrase doesn't exist...

In my mind I simply believe that it isn't kill the infidels but eliminate them; thus, converting us, not chopping off peoples heads....

Christianity: Ragnar pointed out that in this religion one must be God's slave. I would view it more as we are the children of God, we owe are existence to him; thus we must take care of him through sacrifice and worship. In every religion is this not the case? Worship and sacrifice?

About your subservience, yeah really what about it? Serving God in the Christianity in it's essence (listen to the priest never the followers on a side note) the ten commandments, don't lie, don't kill, don't hurt people, respect your parents, respect God, don't be jealous and don't idolize...

Hmm hard rules be a good person and don't get angry that some people are better off then you. Well... I guess I can't find anything about not trying to improve others...

Judaism: This is what I know of Judaism by Christianity. They are the first people that God approached (people), they shall suffer the longest, they shall receive the same in the end as anyone else. As for there Messiah he is suppose to bring them a nation. Am sorry but I just don't see that happening unless the messiah is suppose to unite the nation of man.

Side note I don't see Jesus as there Messiah. Since he's suppose to unite them ~.
So hmm... here my words f advice you religious people place your nose wherever you see that a religion is harming someone.
Hope I don't aggravate too many people with this post.

P.S. The thing about women am not sure but my guess is the holy book of Islam just doesn't mention women must thus most Muslims take it that they aren't important; thus, they do as they wish with them.

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Rain ForestMoon
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Post by Rain ForestMoon » Tue Mar 21, 2006 4:22 pm

Tagwen wrote: ......In my mind I simply believe that it isn't kill the infidels but eliminate them; thus, converting us, not chopping off peoples heads....
Of course. The instruction is to kill those who don't agree to be converted.

Which, btw, is what christianity did for many centuries. (And some of the more extreme christian fundamentalists would dearly love to re-start that practice.)

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Willow
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Post by Willow » Tue Mar 21, 2006 4:24 pm

The Trick with Islam is that The Koran is not the only source of Law, The Hadith and the sunnah are also incredibly important in Muslim Morality.

Shari'ah law is combination of interpretations of the Koran and the Hadith (sayings of Muhammad). Women are mentioned in both, they are important. Technically, Islam can be one o the most feminist religions that there are. As for Kill the infidels, not really much different in the old testament than "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." Although I am not really sure that "kill the infidels" is actually a verse in Koran.

Thanks for that website BTW Rain forest. I just finished a chapter on Jewish fundamentalism in my class, it is interesting to see how far back the roots of these movements go.
Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
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Kelreth
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Post by Kelreth » Tue Mar 21, 2006 8:06 pm

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/q ... /long.html

12. Kill disbelievers wherever you find them. If they attack you, then kill them. Such is the reward of disbelievers. (But if they desist in their unbelief, then don't kill them.) 2:191-2

39. Have no unbelieving friends. Kill the unbelievers wherever you find them. 4:89

160. Those who deny Muhammad's revelations will be destroyed. 25:36

theres more stuff but all it talks about is how non-believers are going to burn in fire and go to hell, yada yada yada
i am prone to free association. Basically whatever i think i type, so sorry if things get really erratic...

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Willow
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Post by Willow » Wed Mar 22, 2006 7:04 am

Remember this too, that is one persons translation. The trick with the Koran, is that those verses can be translated in several ways.
Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
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Kelreth
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Post by Kelreth » Wed Mar 22, 2006 7:31 am

True, my theo class has shown me the millions of different ways that the bible was translated, making my head hurt from readings in class. they keep the same general message normally. except for those cases were they contradict each other, that is annoying
i am prone to free association. Basically whatever i think i type, so sorry if things get really erratic...

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Ragnar
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Post by Ragnar » Thu Mar 23, 2006 1:21 pm

Aye. I would DEFFINATELY sack the editor.

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Willow
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Post by Willow » Thu Mar 23, 2006 4:01 pm

I want to know who considers themselves qualified to edit scripture?

"God, I was just wondering if you meant to put that comma there?"
Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
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Ragnar
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Post by Ragnar » Fri Mar 24, 2006 12:44 am

Aye well. I think your answer comes when you see how many wars in the last two thousand years have been caused about missplaced commas, or similar.

Carolingian heresey, Numerous other "heresey wars", James IV (I) bible, etc etc. Thats to say nothing of various interpretation conflicts. Catholic and protestant, with the literal meaning of the plonk and coockies, for example.

Every one who had a cheap "John Bull, junior printing out fit" seems to have had a go.

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Willow
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Post by Willow » Fri Mar 24, 2006 11:03 am

For sure, religion gets dragged in, I always have trouble making the leap from Love they neighbour to kill thy neighbour because the translate it as you instead of thou.

people have killed over less though.
Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
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Tagwen
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Post by Tagwen » Sat Mar 25, 2006 2:55 am

The fact that people have killed over less is a sad fact Willow, that goes without saying (why am a saying it then #-o ).

I Suppose that those verses Kelreth found could be true... but I'll still hold onto my belief that religion taught well should be always beneficial to all people.

That's all I've got to say.

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Ragnar
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Post by Ragnar » Sat Mar 25, 2006 3:33 am

Tagwen wrote:.. but I'll still hold onto my belief that religion taught well should be always beneficial to all people.
It's the definition of "beneficial" that needs looking at.

I do not doubt that, even the people that hold to the definitions in Kelreths post, think that is exactly what the are doing.

O.K, T.V evangelists, are in it for the benefit of their own bank account. But Even Hitler and Stalin thought what they were doing was "beneficial".

It does not mean that they are not errant in the belief.

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Post by Artemisblessed » Sat Mar 25, 2006 8:30 am

i have stayed FAR away from this topic, but here goes:

i guess religion can benefit people if it is interpreted that way, but the fact of the matter is, we are humans and humans are greedy, whether or not we want to admit it. if something can be turned around to suit our needs, the majority of us will change it. that's what the spanish did in the inquisition, when they changed the word "murderer" to the word "witch" in the phrase "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live."

but i think that the only benefit comes from not hurting anyone and improving that which needs improving. but i don't think that will happen anytime soon because improvement requires sacrifice and not too many people in the world would sacrifice for people they don't even know. that's called "utopia", which, by the way, translates to "no place".
Treat every new person you meet as if they will be an important influence on you later (you know, love thy neighbor?)

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Ragnar
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Post by Ragnar » Sat Mar 25, 2006 3:24 pm

Artemisblessed wrote: that's what the spanish did in the inquisition, when they changed the word "murderer" to the word "witch" in the phrase "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live."
There is an intersting "leftover" from that. In England (NOT Scotland), no witches were burned at the stake for witchcraft alone.

The offence was "Murder by witchcraft". Without the murder no stake. So, strictly, they stuck with the origional text.

Most of the "witches" were "found" to have murdered, strangely enough. :roll:

But most deaths of witches in England, were as a result of "questioning" NOT punishment.

I believe this DID change slightly when James VI of Scotland became James I of England.

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Crazy Healer Lady
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Post by Crazy Healer Lady » Sun Mar 26, 2006 9:46 am

But most deaths of witches in England, were as a result of "questioning" NOT punishment.
I have heard this. Makes you think. Barbaric clods. Yet it's the same everywhere, isn't it?
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