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The equal of sinning in Wicca- is there one?

Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 5:52 pm
by Mahala
You know how most Christian or Christian-based beliefs have 'sins'? Is there and equivelent in Wicca? Like offending the God. Let's say that Mr. Nobody shoots and deer and leaves it there, dead. Would he get punished?
I've heard that Wicca is a 'sinless' religion. Is it?

Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 6:50 pm
by morgana
Well, yes and no. "Sin" is part of the Christian (Jewish too? and possibly Muslim?) religion. As far as Wicca goes, to my knowledge they don't use the word sin. Now there are definitely "wrong things" to do, such as killing someone else, or other such things. In the case that you have done a "wrong thing," that's where Wicca applies the 3 Fold Law. Basically what you do, the energy (positive OR negative) that you put out, will come back to you 3 times over. It's not so much about the gods coming down from the heavens to smite you if you decide you don't believe in them anymore.

In your example, if Mr. Nobody went into the woods and shot a deer and left it there, do I believe that the gods would lightning bolt his butt? Nah, not really. If that was the case there'd be an awful lot of dead hunters, and the sport probably would have lost it's appeal long ago. Truth be told I don't know what would happen to Mr. Nobody, but according to Wicca it says that what he did would come back to him 3 times over. In the case of shooting a deer it's hard to say, because people have been hunting animals since the beginning of time, whether for food OR for sport, and it seems that they can often go on living normal happy lives even after leaving a dead deer in the woods. :roll:

Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 4:01 am
by Windwalker
Mahala, honey, relax! It's all good! Hakuna Matata, she'll be right, no worries and all phrases that are equivalent.

While it is possible to annoy the crap out of a deity, they'll let you know that you're doing it, and then have a bit of a grump about it for a while. Or maybe that was just me and Hestia. It was my fault, I was being a silly little girl who didn't research things properly and she scared the crap out of me (without, I might add, hurting me or anyone else or damaging anything). I apologised, she sulked for a bit, and now we're on good terms.

Wicca is pretty much a sinless religion. There are things that the majority of pagans tend to frown on, but no sin. Basically, there is yourself. You decide what is good and what is bad. You decide what your morals are. The gods don't punish you if you go against your morals or beliefs. You have to live with them yourself. The gods aren't your babysitters or your bosses. You have to deal with these things yourself, like a grown up.

"When you die, the first thing you lose is your life. The next thing is your illusions." - Pratchett

Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 5:00 am
by Willow
Sin means doing something that is outside the will of God. So maybe if ou use that definition. I think Wicca tends to do just look more at concequences than whether something is the will of God.

Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 12:40 am
by Jescissa
You know in your heart whether you have done something wrong or not. There is nothing called 'sin' in Wicca and it encourages you to be active in taking responsibility for yourself. The concept of sin takes away personal responsibility because you can always claim "the devil made me do it!"

Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 11:38 am
by fatale
Sin - I don't know about sin, but I know about "doing good"

I believe in reward for good deads! it's just as practical of a reward as it is spiritual.
Like, we helped cleaning up the Meramec River (they do it every spring, picking out debris and stuff) It made me feel good inside, but it also helped the environment and everybody can enjoy a clean river. It was also a great way to spend family time together.

In my opinion, even with good intentions you can do harm, so be very careful what you use magic for.

I don't know what made me think of it right now, but there's this very famous german poem by Goethe. the wizzards student hexes the broom to get water for a bath, but doesn't know how to stop the broom. Finally the wizzard awaked from his nap and puts the broom in his place (and I bet the student too)

Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 9:06 pm
by Windwalker
fatale wrote:I don't know what made me think of it right now, but there's this very famous german poem by Goethe. the wizards student hexes the broom to get water for a bath, but doesn't know how to stop the broom. Finally the wizard awaked from his nap and puts the broom in his place (and I bet the student too)
The Sorcerer's Apprentice!!!
Oh, that's SO AWESOME, I had no idea they based that Fantasia bit on a poem by Goethe! Good times, good times. I gotta go find that poem now. I loved "the Bride of Corinth". And the Sorcerer's Apprentice was my favourite part of Fantasia. If only I could read the original German; you always lose something in the translation.

Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 11:35 pm
by Lotus
I've pissed of Dejhote (Thoth) before and he made my life a living hell.
Still, I have no idea how I managed to piss him off in the first place. I am still here alive and kicking....obviously learned whatever lesion he tried to teach me since life is getting better.
I've also done some left-handed things and life did spiral into chaos....guess what? I still breath air.

I do believe in Karma and not exactly the 3 fold law. Karma will return your own energy via a lesion whereas the 3 fold law is just outright punishment for being bad.

Oddly there are just some people who just appear to not get any repercussion. This, I’ve learned, is just appearances. We are all walking through life enduring the same struggles on the same journey getting and giving arrows (experiences). All of this is just to move on to the next state of enlightenment.

"Sin" to me is as much of a Christian boogie-man as "Satan." The idea is that we are born in sin as sinners and just naturally wrong.......I feel otherwise.
Seems too much like a cop-out or a form of manipulation to me.
BB
Lotus

Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 8:39 pm
by Crazy Healer Lady
My partner is big on pointing out sin/evil.

I have tried to explain my view of sin and the devil to him. "I do not believe in evil. I believe in absence of light, things that are definately not on the road to spiritual evolution that will in fact hinder the process. Even they have their place. Even when it seems there is an absence of 'God' I believe that 'God' is there because that lack of said deity is teaching a valuable lesson."

(By the way, he absolutely believes in my view of sin/evil: "Absence of God." I find if you phrase your words correctly, you will find startling similarities in many belief systems!)

So, I believe in doing "wrong," to someone, say, stealing, cutting them off in traffic, yelling at them, picturing their brain exploding if I am mad at them, but I do not see this as "wrong" or "right." Instead, I compare: "Is this directly opposite to the way I want to feel and I want them to feel? Is this helping me advance spiritually?" If not, well, I curb myself & start over.

That is my view of "Sin" in my spirituality. I've not studied enough of Wicca to give a fair answer for that spirituality :)

Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2007 8:11 am
by SageWolf
So I have a question, it's all about the sin/ karma aspect, lets say, you hate this person, I mean really hate, I try not to hate but there are times when disliking strongly is not good enough.

Ok anyway you hate this person, you try to be nice, but you are thinking of ways to torture this person, In your mind. But not wishing any harm to that person just plotting their demise, Is that means for Karmatic backlash? Or 3 fold?

I am asking this because, there are times when I have met people who I don't like and get to know that person and I just hate them, You will remember in previous posts I've had problems with a co-worker I've never wished her harm but that never stopped me from evil Ninja monkeys plotting her demise.

So I was wondering about that, Can your thoughts make it where you get the 3 fold law?

SageWolf

Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2007 11:37 am
by Jescissa
SageWolf wrote:Ok anyway you hate this person, you try to be nice, but you are thinking of ways to torture this person, In your mind. But not wishing any harm to that person just plotting their demise, Is that means for Karmatic backlash? Or 3 fold?
I would say yes. Intent is everything and if you hate someone with every fibre of your being and imagine their death, your intent isn't a good one. I have suffered really horribly over jealous thoughts about another girl, so I know that this can happen :-?

Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2007 3:12 pm
by Mahala
I think that the God and Goddess wouldn't sic kazrma on you for thinking bad things.
The way I see it if it stays in your mind and you never actually do[i/] what you're thinking of doing (murder, rape, ect.) you're fine, because thoughts don't hurt anyone but the thinker. ;)

Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2007 3:30 pm
by Kystar
Subconciously plotting death and dismemberment is sometimes a stress-reliever, that ensures you don't actually DO anything to hurt them.

I don't think the Divine would pounce on you unless you crossed the line to actively pushing negativity out at them.

Gods know how many times I've imagined Crucio'ing an id-10-t who was irritating me. Haven't really been popped on the head, unless a distinct lack of creativity recently counts.

Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2007 9:33 pm
by Crazy Healer Lady
Well, the mind actively controls the energy system. That is why simple meditation & visualization can have such a profound effect on the body & on healing.

When you visualize attacking someone, your energy actually goes out and attacks. Have you ever wondered why it feels soooo terrible when you are out on the street and you can feel the eyes of someone you know is following you? They are thinking very bad things, and you can feel it, just as you can also feel when someone is thinking wonderful thoughts about you. Heck, I need to put up barriers if my sister and I argue. I can't turn my bad on her, or I feel her energetically try to stab me.

This said, I think the energetic version is a lot better than actually going out and doing something harmful to someone. Sometimes, you're just so mad that something needs to die (piece of paper? Pillow?) and it's better that these feelings are dealt with than left to fester or turned and channelled into something chaotic.

Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 2:37 am
by Jescissa
Having actively hated someone for years and suffered incredibly from doing it, it is much better that you attack a pillow for 30 minutes to get the stress out rather than let your negativity fester on the person. It does come back to bite you!

When you hold negative thoughts for someone else, that negativity goes and latches on to them. It's exactly like CHL says,
They are thinking very bad things, and you can feel it, just as you can also feel when someone is thinking wonderful thoughts about you.
If you're thinking of killing someone, that energy goes out there and makes them feel awful...and then what you deal out comes back to you.

This doesn't mean you have to like everyone you meet, but it makes you more careful about the energy you send out. You don't even realise you're doing it...but if you expect the good thoughts we send out in the Blessings forum to work for someone, you have to realise that the bad thoughts we send out about others also work.

What helps me is trying to remember that there is a spark of the divine in everyone, and even though this person has severely hurt me and I can't stand them, I have to respect their right to exist, physically and spiritually. Just as I would never physically assault them, I would never spiritually assault them either. In some ways the payback from spiritual assault is worse because it's coming from the divine authority, rather than human authority.