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Re: Wicca vs. Pagan

Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 1:18 pm
by Ragnar
runewulf wrote:
And as a side note, I am quite aware of Heathens having their own rituals and beliefs... I didn't come by the name Runewulf without reason. ;)
My remarks were quoted at "Jet". ;)

How you doing any way?

Re: Wicca vs. Pagan

Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 3:58 am
by Max
Hello everyone. As an aside, I agree that Pagan is an umbrella term, but Ragnar are you sure that Pagans *must* have have festivals in order to call themselves 'Pagan', isn't that saying if you call yourself a christian you *must* celebrate easter or go to church every week? I think it's even more of a loose term (rightly or wrongly) than you suggest. And back to the topic, I think people forget that Wicca is a fairly new religion, only about 40 years old. In my opinion it gathered together and simplified a lot of varied traditions into one form. I remember being slightly disappointed when I studied it briefly all those years ago. Interesting topic everyone! x

Re: Wicca vs. Pagan

Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:47 am
by Ragnar
Max wrote:Hello everyone. As an aside, I agree that Pagan is an umbrella term, but Ragnar are you sure that Pagans *must* have have festivals in order to call themselves 'Pagan', isn't that saying if you call yourself a christian you *must* celebrate easter or go to church every week?
There are "norms" attached to everything.

Celebrate is probably not a requirement, but to acknowledge and know the festivals IS.

Under British law, if a car has no engine, it is NOT a motor vehicle. The same goes for Heathen /Pagan. You can not pick and choose. You decide you don't like Mid summer, so you ignore it, the whole REASON for Heathening/Paganing is thrown out of the window, JUST as much as the car is now missing an important component that makes it all work together as a motor vehicle, so the practitioner without mid summer can not expect the rest to work, or make sense.

TRUE Heathens/Pagans believe the the universe is like a finely tuned Swiss watch, where if ONE tooth falls of the smallest cog wheeel, you are left with a piece of junk.

The same goes for mixing the Gods.

The "Weekend pagan" can not decide which Gods are his and which are Australian, or Greek, or Chinese. I heard one "pagan priestess" ask for the protection of Thor, Cuernunoss and Diana. Whilst having statues of Ra, and Thoth on the "altar". Mixing traditions makes for a schizophrenic religion at best. A sort of religious "heritage centre". You know what it's meant to do, but it never quite gets there. As with a rowing machine, you can work all day, but at the end you are still in your living room, sweatily watching "Sponge Bob".

"Pagans" appear to have this knack for saying that all the Gods are the same, "Their just known by other names"(!!!). This is conveniently, the same phrase with which christians try to justify your existence when their priests tell them you don't exist.

To us (REAL Heathens/Pagans) this is in the same spirit as Enid Blyton's famous remark in early editions of "Five go to smugglers top" that "It's not nice to call him "sooty", its not his fault he's black".

The Gods are there for a reason, and they are finly tuned to fit in with the other Gods of that particular system. You would not put a Porsche engine in a Rolls Royce.

So, Heathen/Pagan is/are NOT loose descriptions at all. They are precise, fine tuned pieces of machinary, carefuly developed and nurtured over millenia, to get the result we have today.

That is NOT to say we should not carry on imroving. But you do not "improve" by ripping the thing apart and putting it back together like a six day old Ape on acid, with a lego set. Which is what the "weekend Pagans" do.

And if a person were, for some wierd reason known only to themselves, and their shrink, wish to be thought of as "christian" then there are a few guide lines they must follow as well.

Re: Wicca vs. Pagan

Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 6:33 am
by Max
Ooh goodness that was an aggressive passionate reply, but of course that's why I joined this group :-) I was considering semantics really. Well, perhaps we do need an umbrella term for people who worship nature but not a specific Norse/Celtic/Egyptian God; and even for those who pick and choose from different paths,(as strange as it might seem to others). And I must object to your comment about Christians :-? it's as bad as a fundementalist comment!

Re: Wicca vs. Pagan

Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 7:05 am
by Ragnar
Max wrote: And I must object to your comment about Christians :-? it's as bad as a fundementalist comment!
May have escaped your attention, but we are on "The PAGAN library" and you are talking to ME. You want "nice to scum", go to a christian web site and ask for Mother bloody Theresa.

Do you think THEY were concerned what WE thought as the flames climbed our legs from the bushells placed around the stake we were tied to? Do you think the b******s who burned my Grandmother, and therefore the whole family, out of her house, because she was a shaman, where thinking sweet sympathetic thoughts?

They get back what they give three fold. (In my case, as I am Germanic NINE fold).

SCREW them.

Re: Wicca vs. Pagan

Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 8:31 am
by Crazy Healer Lady
Can't we be better than them?

Take feminism and sexism. Feminists want to give back to men 3-fold what women of past generations have endured, and are not taken seriously. People would rather eat lead than listen to a hardcore feminist rant. Equalists strive for equality and not revenge, and they get heard. Mind, feminists have the furious drive, but it's the equalist that gets listened to.

I'm not saying to be a tree-hugging, flower-picking hippy, although that's fun at times. We do need an articulate and educated representation of Paganism.

It reminds me also of the whole First Nations thing over here. I am expected to apologize for what my ancestors have done. I'm a minority by religion but the devil by race, apparently, and because I'm white, I am horrible and am subject to racist jokes. However, "It was not me that spread smallpox. It was not you who endured it. I feel badly for our ancestors, on both sides, but it is time to move on."

In cases of present, damn rights we have justification to be angry. It's horrible that your family experienced that. And for those who experience prejudice in every day, we must deal with this, NOW.

BUT, there has to be a better solution than getting angry right back. If we can react from a healed state of being, SO much more will get done. People will listen to us, because we won't be talking from our wounds. We'll have the strength necessary to do what we need to do. They'll see the good in Paganism, laws will get passed, and there will be acceptance, on all ends. WE will be the articulate and educated representation of Paganism.

We are part of a new age. I've said this many times, and I'm seeing so many more indications. Generations of old thinking are giving way to a new era of tolerance and education. I fully intend on playing an active part in it, to dream the world into being and to play the roles necessary.

My advice to everyone on this forum is to heal the old wounds, and find forgiveness for self and others, for crimes unspeakable, for intolerances, for everything. Then we can act and react from a space of solid ground, not out of fear or anger, and much more will get done. We won't be creating the same cycle as we have been. Change happens from within, and flows without. Let's do it. This is our foundation.

Re: Wicca vs. Pagan

Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 8:55 am
by Ragnar
We have TRIED "Mr nice guy" with these Middle East invaders for HOW long? It has not worked. Except for a few grave stone markers in Arlington as a sop, and the fact we are not OFFICIALY ostracised, we have "won" nothing.

Another group of Middle Eastern wannabees come along, knock a few buildings over in New York, and they are all of a sudden "Yes sir! No sir! Would you care for me to lick your ass sir?"

Aye damn RIGHT I get p****d off when someone pulls me up for "not being nice".

They really do NOT want to see me when I am really not being "nice".

And they really DO not want me to start learning to fly.

Re: Wicca vs. Pagan

Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 5:28 pm
by Lotus
I would have to respectfully agree with Ragnar on this one. He is right to say that we have played the "nice" role and it has gotten us nowhere.
They would care less what we think or say because we are just "lost souls that need to be saved." Tell all of this 'rainbows and sunshine' stuff to Darla Wynne and ask her if they thought twice about killing her animals and harassing her (because she was a witch who dared to question the politicians in her town doing their 'Jesus invocations').


Re: Wicca vs. Pagan

Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 7:43 pm
by Kystar
I think it's a fine line to walk, truly, to stand up for our rights without resorting to the type of violence that would make the people who think they are better than us feel vindicated or justified in their prejudice.

The attitude of some regarding alternate religions or non-standard faith practices have driving me to screaming fits before. The fear-mongering that some religious figures started right after 9/11 is disgusting.

Personally, I don't have any problems with telling some arrogant berk with a chip on his shoulder where to shove it...but then again, I've always been a little quick off the mark. Once got the nickname "Suzy Kaboom" that should tell you something.

I don't think that the pagan community as a whole is best represented by some of those who find their way to the Media's attention. I agree that we need better representation. That we need to be more unified against a prejudice that has been ingrained into people's psyche since the dark ages (How many folk or fairy tales has an evil sorcerer or wicked witch?). I agree that backing down when confronted with aggression isn't in our best interests. Then again, instigating the aggression isn't either.

Like I said, fine line to walk.

And to add to the Wicca vs. Pagan...I consider myself an Elemental Witch, a Pagan, but have nothing in my structure of practice that is truly Wiccan. I think Wicca is a path in the pagan sense, but it's not the only one.

Re: Wicca vs. Pagan

Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 7:45 pm
by white_harmony
*drops in my 2 cents worth*

I have to agree with CHL .. Anger doesn't get anyone anywhere. All it does is continue to muddy the waters and make it harder to see on both sides.

But I can understand why people say that being the nice guy hasn't gotten us anywhere either. And I can see alternative health, alternative religions and beliefs slowly growing and flourishing in places it never did before, here in Aus anyways, as I don't have all that much contact with overseas bar these boards lol.

When I was in high school (and I went to a state school over here, not a private or religious school), about 2 or 3 years before the Queensland State Government FINALLY turned over an old law condemning paganism and saying it was illegal to practice it in our state, a group of friends and I were pulled up by the school because we had "unusual lunch hour behaviours, read strange books, and apparently went around doing chants in school hours on school property and that they had spoken to our parents about it" and they had received a phone call from a "concerned parent" saying that we were having a sleepover (which we were) at the end of the week, and we were going to be up all night "doing spells and drinking blood" (the blood bit, definitely not ... spells ... we were going to do more reading on lol). Now days, most schools would simply tell the concerned parent that they'll look into it all, and not bother saying anything to anyone else (at a state school of course ... definitely not at the private ones lol). The idea of paganism here in Australia is a bit more relaxed, and somewhat more accepting of the beliefs that we have, then when I was growing up. There is no where near as much anger towards it here, but then, we are only a little country too. State schools had religious education once every week. Why, I don't know. It's a STATE school, not a freakin RELIGIOUS school ... I will never understand that. But even as a child, I was taught in school that witch craft was evil, and should not be tolerated (most of which I ignored anyways, as I didn't particularly enjoy religious ed).
We have our pagan pride days outside city hall here in Brisbane (capital of queensland) and in all other state capitals for that matter, and alot of people who are interested come along and have a jolly good time, without condemning us, without preaching to us, they accept us for who we are, and freely enjoy what is being said there. It's a nice change from the hate that used to be endured by pagans here that's for sure.

Anyways, half of that was probably off topic ... And I ramble ... lol

Re: Wicca vs. Pagan

Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 7:50 pm
by Crazy Healer Lady
All right, fair enough, but when you do the same as what you're fighting against, you're only creating more of what you're fighting against. I think we can do better. I'm not saying lay down and show our bellies, but to take a different route, because the one Fundies are taking certainly isn't working, and if we take it, it still won't work.

Re: Wicca vs. Pagan

Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 5:28 am
by Ragnar
Crazy Healer Lady wrote: because the one Fundies are taking certainly isn't working, and if we take it, it still won't work.
They have had HOW many U.S Presidents?

I would say SOMETHING is working there.

Re: Wicca vs. Pagan

Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 1:28 pm
by Crazy Healer Lady
Ragnar wrote: They have had HOW many U.S Presidents?

I would say SOMETHING is working there.
Well, we're still here, aren't we? :lol: Paganism and Atheism are on the rise. Since the Renaissance, the Fundies and their scope of power has been on the decline. I'd say what they are doing is certainly not working. It worked in the past, for a time, and is dying.

Re: Wicca vs. Pagan

Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 2:09 pm
by Ragnar
But it is not US that have filled the vaccume, it is the OTHER, little brother of christianity, the second string to the desert peasent bow, the muslims. At least to a GREAT extent, even the fundy christians are not stuck in an 800 year old time warp, getting all upset because someone beat them to a pulp and captured some city or other in the desert.

(Fundy = ANY one that goes into a church more than once a month VOLUNTARILY).

Re: Wicca vs. Pagan

Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 3:33 pm
by FyreGarnet
Ragnar, I have to disagree with your Fundy comment. My mother-in-law goes to church every Sunday, and she is not a Fundy. She is the most wonderful woman I've met. She genuinely cares about people. Ok, now you might be saying "that's just one person, she doesn't count." Well, her husband is the same way. And there are many more in this family that are the same, as well.

I feel that you have a chip on your shoulder but are blowing things way out of proportion. I have a school mate who is Muslim. She is nothing but kinda and nice. She doesn't push her beliefs onto me or others. Neither does her family. I think you are generalizing everything to the extreme. Not all Muslims, or Christians, or Jewish are the problem. The select few that gain the public eye are the problem. Now I'm willing to agree that not everyone gets along and they often are pushy about their beliefs, but there is no need for you to do that. I'm more agreeing with CHL here. No one should ever take something lying down, but you shouldn't be so aggressive that people want to run away from you.