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Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 5:21 pm
by white_harmony
Myrr wrote:- what if we put on a disclaimer? -

Tell that one to the Laws of Karma...
With or without a disclaimer on that kinda stuff, there can't ba any Karmatic effect on us, when we know full well what people are asking for, and give appropriate warnings with the things we do share with eachother; and if it is something that could be potentially dangerous, we dont put it out there for everyone who visits the boards to use, we email to eachother. Its not like we are going to go out and say "Hey y'all come and try out this latest Summoning of the Dead spell, garunteed to get you fried and probably banish your own soul!!" Thats just stupidity. If someone wants a spell, you can either give it to them, or don't bother. I dont see how there can be a Karmic backlash in the sharing of information. All knowledge is learned at its own cost - be it burning your fingers in fire "just to see if it really is hot" or something else. Its the "doer" not the "sharer" that has to decide whether or not they truly want to learn something.

Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 8:04 am
by Artemisblessed
Now I do not like the idea of giving spells out because the focus of the "craft"
i was refering to the 1996 movie "The Craft", not spellcraft.

Re: Wiccan sites forbidding spells

Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 11:31 am
by Ragnar
Grumpy wrote: Are they afraid someone will spill initiated-tradition secrets or something?
Anybody know? Just curious...
In various European countrys, even in U.K, "Passing of spells", or "placing of curses", is still banned.

WE know the difference, but Billy Plod the copper, and Lord snooty, the judge, don't.

In Britain, the "Witchcraft act" was superceded, in 1951, by "The fraudulant mediums act". (British law is NEVER "repealed", once on the books it is there for as much of ever that they are going to get)

That made it an offence, with a possible prison term, to "claim to tell the future", or claim "spells", whether for money, or other matarial gain or not.

In the case of spells, the court will try and prove psychological damage to the recipient, and there fore covered by the "offences against the person act" which can get up to life in prison.

In Britain most Wiccan groups are VERY aware of this, as being the most "visible", they fall foul of the law more than any one else.

I do not recall any one being prosecuted under this law. But the police do cause "hassal" at New age fairs, and such like.

The groups, web sites, MAY be worried about being closed down if the Government decide this is "Passing spells".

Sorry to intrude into "Wiccan land", but I was nosing around and... :-)

Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 11:11 pm
by Crazy Healer Lady
Thanks for pointing that out, Ragnar! I had completely forgotten about those laws...

To Rain ForestMoon: I meant that more of a joke, but you raise an interesting point...

Posted: Sat Mar 25, 2006 3:56 am
by Ragnar
I do not know if they apply similar laws elsewhere, U.S for example. But if the site is based in a country that does, then comes the problem.

THEN there is "Civil law" as well. #-o

Thats where people sue for damages. That is another sword fight entirely, and can be MUCH more damaging.

I will use Germany as an example. The Hells Angels were banned in some German citys, Hamburg being the first. So other Länder (States) thought this would be a jolly good idea. They could not ban the lads under criminal law. So they used civil law. Which meant that they could not just ban Hells Angels, but "any similar group". So now, in the places effected, NO bike clubs can show the patches, colours, whatever. Once it is civil law, it can then be passed into criminal law. Which has happened.

We do not want to see "Wicca and all similar groups" banned because of one place wanting to pass spells.

I would say that these sites are being very responsible. =D>

Posted: Sat Mar 25, 2006 8:35 am
by Artemisblessed
Which meant that they could not just ban Hells Angels, but "any similar group".
in the U.S., it's not illegal to be part of any group (not even the Klan) but it's illegal to...ehm...do illegal things...AS a group.

Posted: Sat Mar 25, 2006 3:34 pm
by Ragnar
Thats the difference between Civil and criminal law.

In civil law you can take a "group action", in criminal law not. BUT, in Germany, the Verfassungsgericht, the court that oversees the constitution, can be asked to make civil findings into criminal law.

Posted: Sat Mar 25, 2006 11:49 pm
by Grumpy
Ragnar- you mean the laws CAN'T be repealed or just never are?

I didn't know spells were illegal in Europe!
{trying to type thru fit of giggles}

Gawd, it cracks me up...
picturing bunches of bobbies on the "Spell Squad", down the hall and to the left of Vice. They really got nothin' better to do? Do they arrest Catholice performing exorcisms? Or Protestants doing the turning bread into the body of jesus thing? What's the difference? What's the legal definition of a spell? What about the "rain,rain go away" nursury rhyme? I gotta look that up. I dunno why its so funny, but it is.
Rag, is there a website with the municipal codes covering that somewhere? Are they local codes or what?

Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 1:29 am
by Ragnar
Grumpy wrote:Ragnar- you mean the laws CAN'T be repealed or just never are?
Can't. As far as I know it is the same in all ex Commonwealth countrys. I know Barristers from Canada, New Zealand and Australia can practice in U.K, and the other way round. The laws are so similar.
Grumpy wrote:I didn't know spells were illegal in Europe!
{trying to type thru fit of giggles}
Well, it would be a count of "Frudulant mediumship", and a count of "threatening the person" or "section 47 assault", which does not have to entail any physical contact, but can be "Psychological harm caused by threats", or "a reasonable belief that harm could be done, or threats carried out".
Grumpy wrote:Gawd, it cracks me up...
picturing bunches of bobbies on the "Spell Squad", down the hall and to the left of Vice.


Actualy it is "Vice" that deal with these cases.
Grumpy wrote:Do they arrest Catholice performing exorcisms? Or Protestants doing the turning bread into the body of jesus thing? What's the difference?
No threat to the person. .....Well, I know WE see it different, but they don't.
What's the legal definition of a spell?


2Spell" is what we know it as. They call it different things in different countrys. But "Causing mental or physical harm by means of fraudulant mediumship", would be something like the "official" deffinition. I can not remember the exact "authorised" words, but they are only a guide any way.
Rag, is there a website with the municipal codes covering that somewhere? Are they local codes or what?


Not that I know of. Web sites were something that only the military, university's and NASA used when I was officialy doing law study.

But you could try googling. One of the major legal publishers in U.K, and "Commonwealth", is "BUTTERWORTHS", and Morriaty's "Police law", is the book that all police use in U.K. There are also ""Stone's Justice Manuals", which cover 99% of the law that a copper would ever need, and are standard issue to courts in U.K.

Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 10:38 am
by Artemisblessed
I didn't know spells were illegal in Europe!
that's pretty ironic, considering that Europe is the place where spellcraft started out...

Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 10:59 am
by Ragnar
That is probably exactly the reason WHY it is illeagal. You can not make something illeagal that you do not knbow exists.

The laws go back to James VI of Scotland. (In U.K), Mainland Europe had other problems. The archbishop of Bremen being the main one.

Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 1:33 pm
by Crazy Healer Lady
that's pretty ironic, considering that Europe is the place where spellcraft started out...
Ohhhh nitpicker that I am!!!!

I KNOW you mean Wiccanism, but I can't help myself: Spellcraft really started out in Africa, where we started out, and travelled with us. Think of the spells of the ancient Shamans in every corner and crevice of the world. Yet even Wicca spells holds incredible similarities to the spells of these far and close places. Xianity holds many similarities in their rituals. Is prayer not a form of spell? "Dear God, bless ____ and _____ and keep them safe." "I place protection aroung _______ that they may be kept safe tonight."

Incense (smoke). Prayer. Holy water, holy earth, Candles: Air, Spirit, Water, Earth, Fire.

God: Creator, God/Goddess.

Mystics. Shamans. Healers. Even in Xianity people have travelled the Otherworlds and spoken with otherworldly beings.

Altars. The only difference is that their cathedrals rise up high as an expression of blatant masculinity and hide all femininity, shroud it in darkness (where do those cramps come from??) and call it evil, while the places of worship of many Pagans - look at the Navajo for one - keep it either in the ground (feminine) or low to the ground.

This has turned into a "Why why why!!!" rant for personal gratification. No appologies. You didn't HAVE to read it :lol:

Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 3:18 pm
by Artemisblessed
oh, i didn't even think of that! i really DID mean spellcraft! i was wrong... :oops:

Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 1:44 am
by Paganlight
Thanks for that post, CHL - there were a few points there I hadn't even thought of!

Posted: Sun Apr 09, 2006 10:22 am
by Artemisblessed
yep yep. true.