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Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 9:45 am
by Graver
... Oh, I'm sorry. Were you finished insulting my beliefs in the thread set up specifically because people challenged me to share them? I can lay down in front of the door and let you wipe your feet on me too, if you'd like?

Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 9:52 am
by SageWolf
I don't find anything insulting. If your gonna jump everytime someone says something that you don't agree with well then move on, ppl are individuals and have their own opnions and their own point of veiws, we are not insulting you we also happen to have collective ADHD when someone posts something we will post on it and then go on in our own speel about this and that. It happens, and just live with it. You said you don't mind heated debates and well we are giving you plenty of ammo for a heated debate, but your still saying that your right and we are wrong, so heres my advise stop getting insulted every second post, we are trying to be nice and friendly, and we actually do enjoy heated debates but your so closed minded that your making the debates less fun. So either deal with it or move on.

We all have our own stories and many have shared them, and when oithers commented something that they saw as different well noone else got offended, it is called Free will, or freedom of speech, it's in the constitution of the US and other countries as well, Free will means we are allowed to have our own thoughts and noone can make us change it if we don't want them too. It's pretty awesome.


P.S. I'm not in a bad mood this time, I'm just saying stop flying off the handle everytime someones opnion differes from yours, it's going to happen. And in all honesty you sound like a child throwing a temper tantrum not getting your own way, Sit back and relax

Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 9:59 am
by Graver
Well, daibanjo just said I was commiting awful blasphemy. I think that goes well beyond the simple statement of one's own beliefs.

Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 10:04 am
by SageWolf
Graver, I'm not speaking for Diabanjo, but I do know he has a wicked sense of humor, he might have really insulted you about it, but he might have been joking as well, when I read it I laughed, I'll admit it, so instead of flying off the handle and being insulted, ask first. Did you just insult me? or Can you please explain what that meant? and do the quote. and funnily enough it could have meant something totally different.


Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 10:32 am
by Graver
So, if I said that your pagan gods were stupid and evil or that you're commiting blasphemy, just like all of your fellow pagans, would the first thing that popped into your head be "I wonder if he's joking?"

Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 10:41 am
by SageWolf
No thats not the first thing that popped into my head, the first thing that popped into my head was this, ok so I'm blasphemious, according to you, and what other books have you read? My Pagan beliefs are just that mine, I don't preach to anyone that my way is the right way or true way, I just ask what research have you done to come to this conclusion, if you'd like I've got books on the subject and I can give you names and titles.


Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 10:49 am
by katsu
Graver wrote:So, if I said that your pagan gods were stupid and evil or that you're commiting blasphemy, just like all of your fellow pagans, would the first thing that popped into your head be "I wonder if he's joking?"
No, I would have the idea that you'd be struck down by lightning if they got pissed......(fortunately they have a good sense of humor :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: )

Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 11:07 am
by Jescissa
Graver, Dai didn't say "You, Graver, you are and always have been a blasphemer." He said that the monotheistic religions that promote a God who shows his angry side more than his loving one is doing the awesome power of God a disservice, a blasphemy. It does insinuate that God is a mean bully, when I know for certain that he is not. The Bible makes it clear that God is a jealous god, wanting worship and adulation for himself and himself alone - implies to me that there are greater and more powerful Gods worthy of worship out there than he is if he is that jealous.

I'm not saying you are a blasphemer, I'm also not saying Dai is 100% wrong either. I've found that he has a very thorough and astounding knowledge of the myths of many cultures and when he makes a statement like that it is in a measured, considered way and it's not an off-the-cuff, throwaway remark intended to provoke you into saying something silly and making you look bad. He's doing it to make you think outside the box a little, push the boundaries of what you already know. We're all here to learn and to share - the only way this can be done is to take established thought and turn it on it's head with reasoned and interesting debate :-D
Daibanjo wrote:He rebelled against the greatest power in the universe, knowing he would fail, knowing he would have to pay the price, and still he did it.
Just like Prometheus, who stole fire from the Gods for us mere mortals. He went up against the awesome power of the Olympians, knowing he would be punished for his actions...but he did it anyway, he did it because he liked us and wanted us to have the advantage of fire!

There are a number of 'heroes' throughout legends and myths that have parallels to Lucifer, but for me it's Prometheus who rings the truest. Lucifer means 'the light-bringer', Prometheus gave us so doing, both Lucifer and Prometheus enlightened us with knowledge.

Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 11:52 am
by Graver
Well, I suppose its okay for you all to think I'm a blasphemer. After all, you're all being deceived by the devil himself, right?

Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 11:58 am
by Jescissa
:lol: According to a great many of your people, apparently we are decieved by the devil. That point of view is quite tiresome these days...but with you I'm sure it's all good clean fun :lol:

Is it so hard to take what Christianity dishes out on a daily basis? Many of us have been called much harsher things than 'blasphemer', yet you're acting like you've never heard such an awful word.

Graver, your truth is your truth. If you feel, personally & spiritually & morally that you have never blasphemed in the way Dai described...then good for you and more power to you. This was never about you versus's about monotheism versus polytheism!

If you feel strongly about this, challenge Dai's words with more than just a stamp of the foot!

Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 12:09 pm
by daibanjo
"Mahala and Morgana have a very valid point."
That is how i began my post. I then went on to explain why i believe it to be so. There was no personal attack. I was referring to all the people of the book. If you include yourself among those who believe that the supreme being, who supposedly makes all the rules, found it necessary to torture his son to death and then send all who do not appreciate this act into torment, then yes. You commit an awful blasphemy. As i said;
"The people who believe this commit an awful blasphemy. They take the supreme being, the creator of all that is. The one with supreme intelligence and wisdom, then give him the petulance of a small child."
You cegan this thread as a means to share your experiences. I have not tried to pick them apart as you suggested we might. I have treated you with respect and attempted a reasonable and intelligent discussion. Unfortunately you have chosen to respond with the petulance of a small child.
I would advise a more mature spiritual path. Until then i doubt we have anything of value to discuss.

Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 12:27 pm
by Graver
Jessica, I was trying to make a joke of it, and I'm glad you got it. My anger isn't as much at being called a blasphemer, its that some members of this site would stoop so low as to calling one another that. I've had pagans call me a blasphemer before (a la exwitch ministries) but I honestly didn't think the membership here would do it. I know I'm not a blasphemer and having some petty child call me that among mixed words isn't something that would bother me, except for the setting it was done in. If I ventured into one of your threads were you were talking about your beliefs and then started spouting some Christian propaganda that you see as nothing more than foolish and call your beliefs blasphemous, well, I'd just be plain stupid and I'm sure I would get a great deal of flack for it, don't you think?

Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 1:08 pm
by Jescissa
Yup, I got the joke :lol:

Graver, humans can only comment on what we see. We can have a relationship with God/Goddess, but what we know is so much a part of our soul and spirit that it is impossible to convey adequately with we misunderstand each other and focus on our differences instead of our similarities. The traditional Abrahamic view of God is very different from the traditional Pagan view of the Gods. The way God is portrayed in the Bible doesn't describe the God I know. But then again, you could read something like the Charge of the God, and feel that it doesn't describe the God you know.

Dai wasn't attacking you personally, neither overtly nor in a roundabout way. He was expressing that he believes the Abrahamic religions don't do the personality of God any justice. You don't like that opinion because as far as your experience is concerned, the Bible wouldn't lie about something as important as the character of God. You're more than welcome to counter any and all opinions on here, but you do have to back up what you say. Dai used elements from the Bible to assemble his opinion. To counter it, perhaps you should do the same? It carries more weight than just saying you dislike an opinion.


Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 2:03 pm
by Graver
The people who believe this commit an awful blasphemy.
That was said in full knowledge that I am in that group. I think that it is painfully obvious that it was intended for me, considering the topic that was under discussion and the context of that topic.

Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 2:31 pm
by katsu
Graver wrote: That was said in full knowledge that I am in that group.
That was said in full knowledge that this is the PAGANlibrary?

plz don't :cry: