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Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 5:34 pm
by daibanjo
Well. this is the Alternative religions forum and the librarian has stated that this is the place for intelligent discussion. I'm willing to do that with Graver. He foesn't seem afrais to give it a shot. Maybe you've figured out though that these are questions I've asked a number of people over the course of years. Please, anyone else on the board who has any thoughts on my questions feel free to jump in. All answers are good.
Following on the subject of the atonement; how do you aproach a Hindu. They would see Christ, if they accepted he existed at all, as an Avatar. In the Vedic religions God frequently manifests himself in the flesh. He comes down from heaven on many occasions, is born and lives among us. Taking on himself the Karma of the world or part of it in order to maintain balance in his creation. Such a being is termed an Avatar. In fact there is a person in Khalistan (Punjab) today who many believe is Lord Shiva. One of the Hindu trinity, (Brahma, Shiva, Krishna.).
We could get into the old religions of North West Europe where Gods also come to live among us. What do you say to those who see the story of Jesus as far from unique and even a plagiarism of their own?

Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 6:02 pm
by Graver
Oh well thats O.K then. We don't have to worry WHAT we do, because....IT'S ALL BEEN ERASED!!!
8-)
Windwalker, thank you for the clarification. That makes your previous statement not said, just misunderstood.
So, if a person has never been exposed to christianity, or has never considered there to be a choice, would they still be refused entry to heaven?
Yes. But the problem is that the Bible teaches that God's glory is obvious to the naked eye and that most just choose not to see it. Missionaries have gone to supposedly pagan villages to discover they worship God in all his glory and nature, just using a different name. Now, to be honest, I don't really know how that works. If they worship the one true God but have never been exposed to the gospel of Christ... I really don't know....

To those claiming the articles are written by this membership:

OH! Now you tell me! I thought all those things on the main site were written by professionals (or semi-pros) and redistributed here.
I can assure you we are NOT going to repeat 24741 articles just to satisfy idle curiosity.
You know, I'm really getting tired of people telling me to go read this stuff. If you don't want to tell your own thing here, don't. But you all don't need to keep badgering me to go read something else. I'm happy to let the conversation lie where it is. If anyone wants to post their story here, they can. If they don't want to, they certainly aren't forced to. Sorry for any rude tone, I'm just getting frustrated with it.

Daibanjo:
Wow! Good question. I honestly don't know. I've never encountered any Hindu practitioners and don't really know much about their beliefs. I don't think I could really comment on it intelligently without doing some research on the subject, which I'm not mentally prepared to do with my current work/school load. I might venture a guess to suggest that perhaps their religion stemmed from a jewish prophecy that was lost to the Hebrew people and that formed the Hindu religion. I have absolutely no evidence or reason to support that, just a first, immidiate hypothesis.

That is an incredibly interesting question and one I'll have to follow up on. I might goes as far as to call Hank Hanegraaff and see what his answer is (He's one of the very extremely few modern Christian Scholars that I respect. He's especially good because he's non-denominational. He talks about the faults of every denomination, which is something I find respectable).

Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 8:39 pm
by Kystar
Graver wrote:
I can assure you we are NOT going to repeat 24741 articles just to satisfy idle curiosity.
You know, I'm really getting tired of people telling me to go read this stuff. If you don't want to tell your own thing here, don't. But you all don't need to keep badgering me to go read something else. I'm happy to let the conversation lie where it is. If anyone wants to post their story here, they can. If they don't want to, they certainly aren't forced to. Sorry for any rude tone, I'm just getting frustrated with it.
If I'm reading this correctly, Graver, They aren't talking just about the articles posted on the main page, they are talking about the threads under discussion on the forums as well. SOme of your questions most likely have been answered in an older thread when someone ELSE asked a similar question. If we reguritated our lives or our personal experiences for everyone who asked, we'd bust a server or three.

For example, there is an old thread entitled "Not Chosing Christianity" that was started in Dec of '05, where many of us tell why we drifted away from that faith.
http://www.paganlibrary.com/phpBB2/view ... highlight=

Or a "What does a Pagan think of Heaven" http://www.paganlibrary.com/phpBB2/view ... highlight=
From Feb 06 where our opinons on the afterlife and some bits of the subject of salvation came up.

We are just trying to point out that you may not be the first with that question, and drifted through some of the older threads might answer your questions more easily, since the question is there, with the answer.

Anyways, why exactly do you need the re-telling of someone's history to understand? Wouldn't it be better to read what they responded in regards to specific questions? It's not exactly like we're all had an "Epiphany" where suddenly a lightswitch was thrown in our brains. Usually, we end on this path by a long, ardurous walk, that crosses chasms filled with pain and hurt that we have moved on from and don't want to unearth. For example, I lived in a mentally abusive family as a child...or near enough that they'd be called such today. A lot of those painful and hateful experiences led me to seek answers elsewhere. Why would I want to revisit wounds that harsh? I certainly don't, at all, but yet that's part of why I went in the direction I did.

And, on that note, I think I'm going to end here, before I enter into a true rant. Gypsy off.

Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 10:23 pm
by Ragnar
Graver wrote:
Oh well thats O.K then. We don't have to worry WHAT we do, because....IT'S ALL BEEN ERASED!!!
8-)
Windwalker, thank you for the clarification.
THAT happened to be MY comment.
OH! Now you tell me! I thought all those things on the main site were written by professionals (or semi-pros) and redistributed here.
Who are you calling "non proffessional? We ARE the proffessionals. It is OUR religion. And as you with yours, no one can tel us "how it is"
Not only was I brought up by Heathens. THEY were, and THEY were, and THEY....you get the idea. There has NEVER been a "christian", or any other desert peasent religion, in my family.

I also happen to have two degrees in the ethnology and religions of "christian" Scandinavia and Scotland.

So be VERY carefull who you refer to as "amateur".
I can assure you we are NOT going to repeat 24741 articles just to satisfy idle curiosity.
You know, I'm really getting tired of people telling me to go read this stuff. If you don't want to tell your own thing here, don't.
Yet again you purosfully miss the point. Those past posts and articles ARE us telling you EXACTLY what you have asked.

I will repeat "We are not going to rewrite 24741 articles, just because some one, who pretends to want to learn, ACTUALY means that he wants spoon fed."

WE spent a lot of time getting those articles together to answer JUST your sort of enquiry. If YOU feel yourself above a bit of research, then stop asking stupid bloody questions. We have no time for pretenders.

Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 10:56 pm
by Graver
1. By professional, I mean someone who is paid by a publisher do produce the material. You guys are not professionals, you're just experts. You you don't write about paganism as a career, you're not pro. Now, if you do, then you are a professional. However, I NEVER referred to ANYONE as amateurs. That was your word, not mine.

2. I jumbled up my quotes and responses. I'll make sure to never do that again unless by mistake... which I never do on purpose...

3. If you would like to point me to specific articles, I'd love to read them. If not feeling inclined to shuffle through nearly 25,000 articles in search of a few things is lazy, than I am one fat-assed bastard. Searching through hoards of article titles in search of the very few that somehow vaguely apply to what I'm looking for isn't something I'm interested in doing. I think you purposefully are missing MY point. I'm asking those who would like to participate in the original topic of this thread to do so, but if you don't feel so inclinded to, don't. Where's the problem with that?

Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 11:04 pm
by Ragnar
Graver wrote:1. By professional, I mean someone who is paid by a publisher do produce the material.
So sure are you?

Would you like to see my bank statements. With the money coming in for publications?

DO NOT MAKE WILD ASSUMPTIONS. YOU MAY BE SHOT DOWN.
if you don't feel so inclinded to,
We HAVE. Read them.

Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 11:58 pm
by Graver
That's a fancy way of saying "You don't know if I'm a pro or not." But its not saying " I AM a pro."

Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 12:26 am
by Ragnar
I make my money by advising on "Heathen issues" to a few German and Scandinavian publishing houses. Also advising the same for T.V doccumentary companys. Mostly at Babelsberg in Potsdam.

You may have seen a series where you are called "True or false" with Richard O'Brian? I was both the Advisor and was part of the filming on the "Vikings" episode.

I lecture at Berlin university, part time, on "Heathen studies". I write lecture notes and book lists for the Scandinavian pre-christian religion courses, and questions for exams, and mark the same.

Is That good enough for you?

What do YOU do for a living besides asking "do you want fries with that order"?

Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 1:00 am
by Graver
Ah ha! Playing pussyfoot, eh? To be honest, no. I haven never heard of that show. But that is likely because I don't have cable/satelite and only rarely watch tv as it is.

I work for Barnes & Noble (Would you like a copy of Robert Jordan's latest fantasy soap opera with your textbooks?) and am a freelance author of very limited success via magazines (stupid flooded industries!)

Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 1:13 am
by katsu
Ragnar, if I'm not mistaken there is a passage in the Havamal about guests and hosts?

Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 1:14 am
by Ragnar
Graver wrote: (Would you like a copy of Robert Jordan's latest fantasy soap opera with your textbooks?)
You would not, by any chance, be infering I am a liar would you?

If you are, I must warn you. I do not take kindly to that one little bit.

In fact the last one payed me €10,000. Be warned.

Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 9:31 am
by Graver
I was suggesting no such thing. You seemed to find that mocking me by implying I work in fast food would make for intelligent conversation. Remember?
What do YOU do for a living besides asking "do you want fries with that order"?
I was simply correcting you on what I would be more likely to ask a customer
Would you like a copy of Robert Jordan's latest fantasy soap opera with your textbooks?

Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 5:46 pm
by Willow
Dijanbo

Thanks for reminding me of that...there is a group of several million people who worship (follow) a guru in INdia named Sai baba, some of whom believe he isa reincarnation of Jesus. And there are many who think Jesus was Vishnu.

I love hinduism, my friends have a pic of Santa Clause on their family altar and will worship Fraser-Ma (The Fraser river as a goddess, as all rivers are sacred in Hinduism).

Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 11:45 pm
by Ragnar
katsu wrote:Ragnar, if I'm not mistaken there is a passage in the Havamal about guests and hosts?
Sorry Katsu. Missed that. Yes, many. Interesting point my dear little Niederlander.... :-D Wa that the breakfast bell again...so soon, so soon...

5: Wit is needed by the wanderer in foreign lands. At home all is easy.
Boast not your deeds among those who are wise.

6: Display not your cleverness; have a care the wise man is silent on another’s ground and raises no anger.
Better friend has no man than good sense.

10: No better burden can a man bear than good sense and manners;
Better than gold it serves, a strong support in need.

11: No better burden can a man bear than good sense and manners;
And no worse a provender is born than a excess of ale.

14: Drunk was I, senseless drunk in the hall of peaceful Fjälar;
Best is that ale feast when each goes home retaining sense and reason.

19: Keep not the drink horn long, drink moderately, speak sense or hold your peace;
None will hold you uncivil if you retire early to bed.

21: Cattle know when to leave the pasture and go home;
But a fool knows not the measure of his stomach.

24: The fool believes all who smile at him are his friends; He knows not how they speak about him.

31: "He thinks himself smart when leaving, the guest who has mocked another; He who pokes fun at table sees not the anger around him.".

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Posted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 9:43 am
by Graver
Lol, you guys really don't have any qualms about spam here, do you? That's cool.