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Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 11:28 am
by SageWolf
Let me make sure I understand what your saying so I won't fly again, Your saying that when you quote your religion and I get angry I'm having issues with my religion? Is that right or am I misunderstanding?
SageWolf

Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 11:53 am
by Graver
No, no no. When I quote my religion and you get angry, its because the aspects of my religion that I'm quoting are on the topic of your religion. My religion doesn't have flattering things to say about other religions, so when I say that my beliefs go along with that, you get upset.

You have a problem with my religion because my religion has a problem with your's... I think...

Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 12:08 pm
by SageWolf
The probelms I have with christianity is that christians have always tried to shove it down everyone else's throat, in the old days it's whorship this or you will be outcast, then later it was you will die, and many have died all in the name of Christianity, and in my religion I don't go knocking on doors trying to get them to go to my church and saying well if you don't you'll go to hell, I honestly feel that is against a persons freewill their will of choice, It also sounds like putting a condition on love, love doesn't come with conditions it is unconditional. In the Christian society, your raised to fear God or his Wrath anyway, and in my religion I don't fear the Wrath of MOther Earth, I honor it, I can't wait to see what she does next, also in the Christian society, women are nothing more then chattle, and I don't really like that, the way I look at it, instead of me getting out of my nice warm bed to get my husband a drink of water, he can get off his fat arse to get it himself, I've been in a relationship where I had to be subserviant and I will never go back to that again, I have my own mind and I use it and use it well. Now I'm not saying that Pagans are better then Christians, I prefer paganism as my choice, But I know christians help When I lived in NC last year, hubby didn't have a job and I didn't either, but a christian friend went to her church and got a food basket for us, it was HUGE, with like 4 gallons of milk in it, but I don't feel right going to a church asking for it, for the simple fact that I'm no longer christian, I respect you for your religion, please respect me for mine, I won't join a church just so I can get "free" things, thats not my nature,

Anyway, I really forgot wha I was saying, so I will close now LMFAO

SageWolf

Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 12:31 pm
by Stormy
"Assuredly I say to you, I have not found such great faith, not even in Israel! And I say to you that many will come from east and west, and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. But the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 8:10-12)

If we accept these words as true, and surely we should, then it is clear that heaven will contain many who are not Christians, and hell will contain many who are! Clearly, throughout the Gospels, Jesus Christ sets forth the criteria for entrance into the kingdom of heaven, and those criteria include love, kindness, forgiveness, and a refusal to judge others:
Whole article here:
http://www.paganlibrary.com/introductor ... speaks.php

Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 1:05 pm
by Graver
Sagewolf:
Our beliefs require us to spread the gospel. We believe that Christ's love is something that every human being should have and Christ has told us to spread his word. If we didn't evangelize, we'd be keeping Christ's love to ourselves, which is something we shouldn't do.

I can understand your negative view of this, but you have to understand its an intricate part of our faith.

I don't know what makes you think we view women as such. Now, the Mormons I would say do that, but not mainstream Christianity. The bible teaches that women should be submissive to their husbands, but it also teaches that men should be kind to their wives. It does say that women shouldn't teach within the Church, but you can find a few thousand churches that break that rule, if you're looking for them.


Stormy, Perhaps reading the entire story would help to put that verse back into context:


Mat 8:5
When Jesus had entered Capernaum, a centurion came to him, asking for help.

Mat 8:6
"Lord," he said, "my servant lies at home paralyzed and in terrible suffering."

Mat 8:7
Jesus said to him, "I will go and heal him."

Mat 8:8
The centurion replied, "Lord, I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. But just say the word, and my servant will be healed.

Mat 8:9
For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, `Go,' and he goes; and that one, `Come,' and he comes. I say to my servant, `Do this,' and he does it."

Mat 8:10
When Jesus heard this, he was astonished and said to those following him, "I tell you the truth, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith.

Mat 8:11
I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.

Mat 8:12
But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Mat 8:13
Then Jesus said to the centurion, "Go! It will be done just as you believed it would." And his servant was healed at that very hour.

The New Living Translation (a paraphrased translation, not a literal translation but a interpretation of meaning instead of word-for-word) interprets these passages as saying:

Mat 8:10
When Jesus heard this, he was amazed. Turning to the crowd, he said, "I tell you the truth, I haven't seen faith like this in all the land of Israel!

Mat 8:11
And I tell you this, that many Gentiles will come from all over the world and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob at the feast in the Kingdom of Heaven.

Mat 8:12
But many Israelites--those for whom the Kingdom was prepared--will be cast into outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

I don't usually use the NLT, because it is interpretation and not the actual translation. I use it here only because my own interpretation of these verses mirror it.

Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 1:11 am
by Ragnar
A)
Graver wrote:I've never claimed that I can judge any individuals state of salvation.
Really?

I draw your attention to;
B)
I believe that those who do not accept Christ as their savior will be denied access to Heaven. Sorry that there's no sugar-coating on that. It has nothing to do with your religion, since that statement applies to every atheist, monotheist, and polytheist that hasn't accepted Christ. There are countless "Christians" who are not going to Heaven because they've just gone through the motions and haven't truly accepted Christ.
C)
And on that Note, does that mean all the Buddist and Jews and Hindues are going to Hell?
Yes.
I think logic has taken a little walk here.

Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 8:40 am
by Graver
You take my words out of context. I can not judge whether any person has accepted Christ into their heart or not. Many claim to have, but actually have not. Many claim that they haven't, but actually have.

I can't judge an INDIVIDUAL'S state of salvation, but as part of my faith, I can tell you that those who don't accept Christ as their savior are not saved. I can't tell you if YOU are saved or not, because all I have is your word on it.

Does that make it a bit clearer, I know it won't make my views any more popular...

Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 11:39 pm
by Ragnar
I believe that those who do not accept Christ as their savior will be denied access to Heaven.
And on that Note, does that mean all the Buddist and Jews and Hindues are going to Hell?
Yes.

EINDEUTIG. Care to explain how either of those were "out of context"?

Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 5:53 am
by SageWolf
Cool. so then when we all go to hell :lol: :lol: we can still learn thats AWESOME

Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 10:02 am
by Graver
That's not. That's what my religion believes, that people who do not accept Christ will not go to Heaven. So, if a person is Buddhist their whole life and doesn't accept Christ, they will not go to Heaven.

I'm saying that I am personally incapable of judging any individuals salvation or lack thereof. I know what I believe, but all I know of them is what they tell me and what I feel about them.

For instance, this board seems to contain a large number of ex-Christians. That means (in Christian terms) that they either never honestly accepted Christ's salvation while a Christian, or they have and are now living in rebellion to God the way an angsty 15 year old might be in rebellion to their parents.

Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 10:14 am
by iriseyes
Graver wrote:That's not. That's what my religion believes, that people who do not accept Christ will not go to Heaven. So, if a person is Buddhist their whole life and doesn't accept Christ, they will not go to Heaven.

I'm saying that I am personally incapable of judging any individuals salvation or lack thereof. I know what I believe, but all I know of them is what they tell me and what I feel about them.

For instance, this board seems to contain a large number of ex-Christians. That means (in Christian terms) that they either never honestly accepted Christ's salvation while a Christian, or they have and are now living in rebellion to God the way an angsty 15 year old might be in rebellion to their parents.
I am one of those X Christians.. Yes, I did accepted salvation.. But Im not angsty 15 year old either that is rebellious... Im a person fed up with the BS that I have been fed all my life.. And have now truly accept that "I" am walking a more righteous path than ever before.

Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 2:26 pm
by katsu
(looking at Ragnars post)
Graver wrote:That's not. That's what my religion believes, that people who do not accept Christ will not go to Heaven.
As do you; or you are renouncing your faith.....(if I'm not misaken)
Graver wrote:So, if a person is Buddhist their whole life and doesn't accept Christ, they will not go to Heaven.
An that is consistent with a loving God; how?
Graver wrote:I'm saying that I am personally incapable of judging any individuals salvation or lack thereof. I know what I believe, but all I know of them is what they tell me and what I feel about them.
True
Graver wrote:For instance, this board seems to contain a large number of ex-Christians.
True
Graver wrote:That means (in Christian terms) that they either never honestly accepted Christ's salvation while a Christian, or they have and are now living in rebellion to God the way an angsty 15 year old might be in rebellion to their parents.
Having been a Christian for 22 years, I've seen much. I taught much. And I've asked much. (that last one got me here........the question 'Why?')

Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 2:34 pm
by Kitsune
From my standpoint, It's a good thing I won't be going to your heaven. I also don't think I'll be going to your hell, either. Hell is obviously a product of FEAR and an attempt by the church to scare people into following their beliefs. Well, I don't serve my deity out of fear of punishment, I serve her out of love and compassion.

And from what I could tell, that's what most christians focus on. We'll go to Hell IF we're bad. If the only reason you're going to be good is to avoid punishment, then I feel that you obviously haven't learned the lesson of humanity, you've only learned how to obey orders. But I find that Pagan religions lift you up, and insist that you improve yourself not out of fear, but out of a sincere desire to be more than you were before. Therefore, I was pulled to the Earth & Moon, and a religion where I felt the embrace of deity.

And that's what we're all looking for, isn't it? That feeling of beautiful connectedness and feeling of belonging. And remember, in that we are all the same. [-o<

Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 4:04 pm
by Graver
Iriseyes:
No disrespect intended. I was not insinuating that you were that, rather drawing a comparison that anyone could understand. Everyone understands the angsty, rebellious teenager thing. So, I was using it as an analogy.

Katsu:
No, I hold that same belief. I believe that if you do not accept Christ's salvation, you will not go to Heaven.

[So, if a person is Buddhist their whole life and doesn't accept Christ, they will not go to Heaven.]
{An that is consistent with a loving God; how?}
The fact that they lived their entire lives with the opportunity to accept Christ's love and choose not to with every moment of their being. All he has required is for an instant of faithfulness and those who give it by allowing themselves to be saved will be allowed into Heaven. THAT is how loving he is. He's not requiring you to be a saint. There are no weekly or daily rituals to observe. He's got his hand stretched out to every single human being and only asks that you take his hand. Imagine yourself as clinging to the edge of a cliff and he's offering his hand. All you have to do is grab his hand, and you'll live. But if you don't, you're going to fall and die because you're too weak to pull yourself up.

So, how can you blame the person begging to help you up for your death, when you wouldn't even give him your hand so he could help you?

Kitsune:
To be honest, I'm not convinced that the traditional interpretation of Hell is accurate. I think it was, as you claim, a tool the church used to scare/simplify the consequences to people. I'm not convinced that there is an actual Hell. I believe that those who are not saved will not be allowed in Heaven and will live in eternal separation from God. I'm not sure of how that will be done, though. For all I know, an unsaved soul will simply shrivel and ease to exist or toil on the Earth with nothing to hope for.

I don't really know. But, you should notice, that before you brought this subject up I never mentioned Hell. I don't think that is something Christians should teach about. We're supposed to evangelize through love, not through hate. Hope, not fear. Unfortunately for the faith, its run by humans. sinful, imperfect, depraved humans. So, it is no wonder that we aren't as we should be.

Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 12:43 am
by BornoftheEarth
Graver wrote:Unfortunately for the faith, its run by humans. sinful, imperfect, depraved humans. So, it is no wonder that we aren't as we should be.
Was not the bible also written and recorded, translated over and over and over and over by these same, sinful, imperfect, depraved humans?

How then can you be sure of what in the bible is true, and what was changed to fit what that particular person wanted it to mean at that particular time? That is, if any of it is to be taken literally.