Confusion re: Xtians

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iriseyes
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Post by iriseyes » Tue Feb 13, 2007 5:02 am

Kystar wrote:First off, I did ask about doubt...but then I asked later "What is sin?"

Disobediance to God doesn't fly here...since our definition of "God" is nothing like yours.

The concept that a child, who has never been alive before, a beautiful new spirit, is naturally and inherently EVIL because they are invariably SINFUL is one of the main sticking points I have with the concept of sin. If that is true, then as a child, did Jesus not SIN, since children's sins come because THEY DON'T KNOW ANY BETTER?

Children are born with only instinct...they are the most natural of humans...the closest to our wild cousins. The Divine made us all, and we are all related. Children work from their animal instincts until Human Logic and Manners are taught to them. That is why children can be cruel...because Pack Mentality is sometimes cruel.

The thought that a small child, who is too young to understand, but who sins regardless, dies and is punished, is too horrific for me to accept your god as a loving parent.
Iriseyes wrote:I know of a child who is terrified of the Devil at the age of 6, I think it is horrible..


"Because I said so," didn't work for my human parents, why should it work for my divine parent?

Ragnar is short with his anwers, but entirely fair when he cuts someone down...I should know, I've been on the end of his verbal sword!
What I can't stand is the fact Im always told Im going to burn in hell. As far as I am concerned " I lived there for aprox 16 years" so that doesn't fly with me any more.
To thine own self be true.

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Post by Kystar » Tue Feb 13, 2007 5:31 am

iriseyes, did you add that line about a child afraid of the devil? It was embedded in my quote, but I didn't write anything about that. I'm confused!?
You say "Witch" like it's a bad thing!

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katsu
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Post by katsu » Tue Feb 13, 2007 6:15 am

Graver wrote:Wow... nice moderation!
Moderation? Ragnar was just giving his opinion. (he's about as subtle as a bear in pub, but we like him that way :lol: )
Graver wrote:I haven't spoken ill of you or your beliefs, and I've held my tongue several times when you and a few other members have done so to mine. I don't see how this can be considered acceptable by a genre of religion that holds tolerance as so highly valuable. And especially since it is being displayed by the STAFF from a site specifically tailored to such a tolerant aspect of religion.
Graver, you're in the PAGANlibrary. I warned you that we like heated discussions. As to holding your tonque, I doubt you're the only one. And I'm only speaking of myself, but I had to delete a few 'preview'-posts in the last few hours. So far I gave you the benefit of the doubt........
Graver wrote:I know that one member's trolling and intolerance does not speak for you all. The majority of you have been very tolerant and inviting.


Yes and yes. I see one (possible) troll and a very tolerant library.

Dear Graver, read some posts here. A lot of us are former Christians and therefore have a strong opinion about it. That doesn't mean that it's directed toward you.
I can only tell you that you need to separate your own feelings from your faith. If someone tells me my faith sucks, I expect that they are; either ignorant, or will be smited by the Gods. (so far no one has been smited 8-) ).
If you truly wish to learn, take the time to read older posts and ask us if you have trouble with them.

From underneath the Great Oak,
Katsu

-edit- tnx Willow
Last edited by katsu on Tue Feb 13, 2007 8:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Willow » Tue Feb 13, 2007 8:10 am

LOL :lol:

Smitten...do you maybe mean smited?

I think smitten is to be in love with....but hey that might work too.

We are all waiting for our lightening bolts!
Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
Dr. Seuss (1904 - 1991)

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katsu
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Post by katsu » Tue Feb 13, 2007 8:13 am

:lol: don't you just love another language =D>
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Willow
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Post by Willow » Tue Feb 13, 2007 8:20 am

#-o Good one Willow make fun of the foriegn kids #-o

Sorry about that!
Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
Dr. Seuss (1904 - 1991)

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katsu
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Post by katsu » Tue Feb 13, 2007 8:33 am

Willow wrote:#-o Good one Willow make fun of the foriegn kids #-o

Sorry about that!
Just be sorry about the 'kid' part........ ;) (or should I be flattered? :oops: )
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Post by Graver » Tue Feb 13, 2007 10:23 am

Forgotten oceans:
You're right. I don't want to go reading through archives of articles. I specifically stated that before anyone even suggested it. I'm hear looking for personal, individual answers because I don't think that every single person fits the same belief mold. If you ask the Southern Baptist Convention "What do Christians believe?" you're not going to get the same result as walking up to a baptist human being and asking the human being what they believe. I don't really want to know what "pagans" believe. I want to know what you believe. Every member has their own perspective and wisdom, giving them each a unique interpretation of paganism. THAT is what I'm interested in. I just assumed that pagans, like every single religion in the world (except Scientology), liked the idea of sharing their faith. Maybe if you treat everyone curious person like you've treated me, the world will continue to be alienated by you. I didn't think that pagans liked to be alienated, but I suppose that I was wrong, at least about some of you.

I understand that Mods are loved members of the board (if they aren't they usually don't remain mods for very long). I knew speaking as I did wasn't going to get me any points. But I can only let a monkey throw so much dung at me until I scrape some of and fling it right back. If you think my response was unprovoked, then your appreciation for him has entirely blinded you. I don't dispute that he's a good mod to you guys, but when a Mod flames a new member, its a whole different story then when a regular member does.

I am playing nice. Playing nice isn't laughing while the bully rubs your face in the sandbox.

Kystar:
Well, I didn't expect it to fly here. I was just providing my own insight on the situation. I wasn't expecting you to agree with me. It seemed that the whole purpose of this thread was a misunderstood aspect of Christianity, so I weighed in. That was followed by a round of quiz the Christian, which lead to the answers I gave to the questions asked of me. I'm sorry if you don't like the answers, but I'm not going to lie or change my beliefs just to make you happy, just as you're not going to do that to make me happy.

I don't believe that a child is sinful. I believe that a child is born with the capacity to sin. You can not sin until you're capable of making moral decisions. I believe that if a human being dies before they're capable of making moral decisions, then they are sinless and accepted into Heaven, whether they were raised Christian or not.

Katsu:
Maybe it would make a little bit of difference if you were having an intelligent conversation about religion with a Christian, and then one of them swoops in, takes your quotes, and starts preaching to the others about all the different ways you're wrong.

I can take lively discussion, I just don't appreciate it when the site staff makes it hostile and inflammatory.
Maybe not?

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Post by Stormy » Tue Feb 13, 2007 10:39 am

*SIGH*...

...everytime a Christian comes to the boards, I hope that it will work out - it never does. Fact is, any Christian who comes here who isn't looking to change IS looking for trouble.

And the receipe is always the same - make it look like WE are attacking, baiting, provoking... whatever. Yes, sometime we DO, but REMEMBER - this is a PAGAN BOARD. Many of us WERE Christians, and found it LACKING, therefore we are not going to react as politely as we should at all times when you go on about things which we have already gone through the mud about on our own, washed off, and feeling nice and clean now, want to STAY that way.

But the baiting, attacking, provoking, of course, it's never the Christian's fault for coming onto a PAGAN board, looking for a fight. And before you start spouting the crap about "I came here looking for knowledge" - honey, YOU ALL COME HERE LOOKING FOR KNOWLEDGE - it's the code words that equal "looking for a fight" and it's a great way to try and make us look like the bad guys. Besides, IF YOU REALLY WERE LOOKING FOR KNOWLEDGE YOU WOULD NOT HAVE A PROBLEM READING THROUGH ARCHIVES OF ARTICLES!!!!!!!!

Oh, and as for your comment "Basically, Heaven is a perfect place without sin." just that one comment can tell you a lot about why we Pagans want nothing to do with your heaven - it's got to be a pretty boring place - what can you do there? Not a damn thing. If eternity is nothing but a zombified state of eternal praise you can have it.

Eh, Ragnar, I think it's time we get out the BBQ sauce, I for one have had enough, time to get a REAL taste of this blokes religion ;)
Stormy ~~}~}-:>
Aut viam inveniam aut faciam

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Graver
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Post by Graver » Tue Feb 13, 2007 11:52 am

Oh, so its not just one staff member. Fantastic. Rude, aggressive behavior is excusable because I'm a Christian. That's great.

I won't continue to plague these threads with my presence, however I do intend to keep reading and responding to polite posts in the thread I made specifically for people to tell me their beliefs.

I'd hoped this place would be different from the other, guess I was wrong.

I hope you can continue to enjoy your religious intolerance while remaining self-righteous.
Maybe not?

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Post by Stormy » Tue Feb 13, 2007 12:15 pm

Note how he completely ignores the comment about "if you were really seeking knowledge" and instead does the standard "poor Christian is unfairly attacked".

Yeah, folks, you aren't used to seeing Stormy be like this, but ya know, sometime, even Stormy gets fed up with all the folks who live for nothing more than to sit at their computers and find forums to go to where they can incite flame wars, all the while jumping up and down and saying "I don't start flame wars - other people attack me." It's a stupid, childish, tiresome game that I see played over and over again. And yes, I'm tired of it.

Hummm, well lets see - if every where you go, people end up not liking you, well, perhaps the common denominator is YOU. You being Christian has got nothing to do with how you are treated - it's YOU that has everything to do with how you are treated.

I am done, I will speak no more to you, I will waste not one more ounce of energy or thought.
Stormy ~~}~}-:>
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Post by Jescissa » Tue Feb 13, 2007 12:20 pm

Graver, while it's nice to meet a Christian who seems to really want to know what Pagans believe...I've also seen for myself the webpages for Christians on "witnessing to Pagans" where Christians have drawn Pagans out on their beliefs just so they have a better understanding of the Pagan mind to try and convert them. :-? That doesn't go down well with Pagans, particularly Pagans who have left Christianity behind for good and don't want to get stuck in again.

We are tolerant as a rule, but as you said, you can't keep sitting still having mud flung at you for long. You might not be the instigator of the mud flinging here, but unfortunately many of us have had the misfortune of being badly treated by Christians in the past who were all too happy to fling mud at us.

I would advise you to read everything available on Paganism before asking for personal accounts of how individuals came to the Pagan path. It's just jumping the gun this way around! Before I would ever go up to someone and ask them for details about their personal spiritual path, I would surround myself in the general knowledge of their path...that way if they brought up something that sounded a bit weird to me, it might not sound as shocking or potentially offensive as it might if I knew nothing about the basics of the path.
"If you trust in yourself and believe in your dreams and follow your star...you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy. Goodbye." - Miss Tick, Terry Pratchett's Wee Free Men

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forgotten oceans
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Post by forgotten oceans » Tue Feb 13, 2007 3:50 pm

You know Graver, I was Soutern Baptist for a very long time, untill one night I realised that Jesus wasn't gonna stop my dad from beating my mother and me. I got tired of hearing 'God has a plan' for all my bruises. So I found better Gods, I found my own strength. I left at 17 and then finally got my mother out. Most of the Pagans you'll run into have reasons why they're Pagan, they found Christianity and many Christains 'unsatisfactory'.

I for one like my little hole in the wall. No one made you come into our sanctuary, you showed up on your own. And then you tell us all how fundy you are and that you are soon to be hated and you some how expect us to not think you're gonna cuase trouble? You throw a rabbit in a wolf den and expect them not to nibble?

As to Ragnar, he's our resident badger. Anyone who's read The Once and Future King or just been here long enough, knows that he acts as a flip side for us. He helps us look at things in new perspectives, and even better, he likes busting bubbles. He doesn't just agree with you and let you think you're right, he'll let you know when you're screwing up. And Stormy even, one of our most gental Mods, you certainly are on a roll.

You seem to like shouting about how ppl here are unfair, I'd like to see your basis for comperasson. You asked questions and we give answears to the best of our ability and no one has said that these things are absolute truths. Yet you seem to wanna turn things around when the answears you receive aren't nice, cute, or in a pretty bow.

You seem to think picking fights with the Mods are gonna get you somewhere. Are you doubting your faith in the God of Abraham? It seems to me you're looking for a reason to stay with your current faith, you're trying to convince yourself that all others are wrong and that you're fine where you are. That's the only reason I can see anyone setting themselves up like you have you. I almost feel sorry for you, almost, you don't have the strength to break away and be who you wanna be, so you come here to convince yourself that others are wrong to be who they are. You and I might not see eye to eye, but I'm gonna pray for you, yes, that's right, Pagans pray too. I hope you find what it is you seek most, I hope you find you.
Maybe now you're starting to understand that while I may have been born predispositioned to be pretty batty, my parents saw to it that it was a certainty and completely unavoidable. -Me

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katsu
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Post by katsu » Tue Feb 13, 2007 4:50 pm

Graver wrote:

Maybe it would make a little bit of difference if you were having an intelligent conversation about religion with a Christian, and then one of them swoops in, takes your quotes, and starts preaching to the others about all the different ways you're wrong.
Give me a Euro for every time that has occured. 8-).....trust me, not wanting to go there.
Graver wrote: I can take lively discussion, I just don't appreciate it when the site staff makes it hostile and inflammatory.
No you can't, and no they don't. Once more; you're in the PAGANlibrary.
People here have been nice, really nice.
The last few posts have been pointing you the way; follow it.

Once more,
yours from underneath the Great Oak.

Katsu
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Post by Windwalker » Tue Feb 13, 2007 9:12 pm

Graver, please note:

1) This is our place, and we are going to express ourselves. We are tolerant, yes, but if you poke a cat with a stick, it is going to eat your face. But I think some of the time, you're not actually being attacked - you merely see it as an attack. Ragnar often tells people what they don't want to hear, but you have to deal with that.

2) We are going to keep telling you to read the articles. In order to understand our individual beliefs, it's useful to know some of the background. If you just can't be bothered, then why are you here? Those articles will tell you more than we can.

3) Religion is personal. Some of the things we have experienced we won't even share with our close friends, let alone strangers, because they are personal. Religion is a sticky issue because beliefs deeply held are entwined with emotions, and no one wants to get unnecessarily hurt. We appreciate that you want to learn about our beliefs but I'm not going to tell you much about mine in the same way that I wouldn't tell you my sexual history.
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