Confusion re: Xtians

This area is for the INTELLIGENT discussion of all other religions, be it Christianity, Buddhist, Hindu, Native American, or anything else!
Post Reply
User avatar
daibanjo
Level 9
Level 9
Posts: 267
Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2004 9:44 pm
Location: Los Angeles
Zodiac: Virgo
Contact:

Post by daibanjo » Sun Feb 11, 2007 11:53 pm

How interesting;
As long as this is a decent and honorable debate there is no need for you to fear that you will be the subject of hatred and ridicule as your signature suggests.
The difficulty in debating a christian is that we would wish to use reason, logic, personal experience and adventures of the spirit. The Christian usually reduces the argument to;
"The bible is the word of god."
"How do you know it's the word of god?"
"because the bible says so."
This is frustrating and leads nowhere please don't try to take us in this circle.

Let's talk about the christian idea of sin and obedience;
Christian definition of sin is to willfully disobey the will of god. This leads us to ask "What is the will of god?" you would say that the will of god is that we accept jesus as god in the flesh, that he died for our sins and was resurrected so that all who believe in him should have eternal life.Then we should try to live the commandments of god in order to demonstrate outwardly that we are a changed person inwardly.
I know there's more to it but i'm trying to sum it up.
I have many problems with that. Let's begin with the devout jew who loves the god of abraham isaac and jacob. who worships him all his days and keeps the law and the guidance of the prophets. however he does not accept jesus was the messiah. Instead he is waiting for the messiah to come. Then there is the compassionate moslem who also loves and worships the same god. who sees jihad, the holy war, not as violence to the unbeliever but as the war he fights within himself to try to become a person worthy of the presence of god. He gives willingly to those less fortunate and prays every day. The devout hindu who deals kindly with all around and also lives in such a way that heaven will welcome him. I could go on about all faiths, even my own, but what about all the millions of good and decent people, real saints in all their deeds, But according to the christian faith they are going to the same hell as hitler, stalin, the serial killers and every truly evil person.
If what i have said is true, and the torments of hell are reserved for those who are good and decent and kind but not of your persuasion, then i submit that you worship an evil god.
It'll be all right in the end. If it's not all right, it's not the end.

User avatar
Ragnar
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 2820
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2005 12:26 pm
Location: Preußen (Deutschland).
Contact:

Post by Ragnar » Mon Feb 12, 2007 2:53 am

Graver wrote:Sin is disobedience to God, Sin is in this world because God gave us free will.
You must obey me, but you don't have to if you don't want to. Sounds like the U.N. NOT particularly logical, is it?
Every bad thing in the world was here when things first began
,
"God" created EVERYTHING, right? So he created those bad things as well.
The Apocalypse is going to be when the last, and worst, thing he was protecting us from is released.
Not very much in control of "his own creation", is he?
The Bible is the greatest outlet of wisdom that we have.

Sais who?
Bowing your head is a sign of respect and humility.
It is a sign of a highly developed inferiority complex.
Not the whole Bible, but the New Testament.
Aha! NOW we see it, the "pick and mix" counter.
Once we've made that choice, our calling is to spread the gospel so that others might make that choice.

I have some bad news for you sunshine, to burn or not to burn is NOT a choice.

Ahh, spring is come, and breakfast is here. :-D

User avatar
Willow
Level 86
Level 86
Posts: 2550
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2004 9:35 am
Location: Canada
Contact:

Post by Willow » Mon Feb 12, 2007 5:58 am

Ragnar...you quoted me, I was thinking in the Christian context. We can debate some other time if humility is a good thing :lol:

OK graver, lets look at what you have said

You are right, sin is disobediance to your God. I think the problem lies in that I don't beleive in your God. Therefore I don't believe in sin. So that is kind of a moot point for me.

Ragnar addressed your next point.

Something else, not all of us believe in Karma. I don't for example. I think crap happens and we deal withit. Some of it comes from choices we make, some of it comes from choices other people make. Some of it comes from random crap. We deal with it and c'est la vie.

I would have to argue that everything is to easy to abuse There are pagans who abuse thier power. Same as in every beleif and ideology. The Bible is abused and interpreted in horible ways all the time. I meet the most educated people who miss the beuaty in what they study, the point I am tryingt o make is that relgion doesn't screw things up. People do.

My other thought is who has an authentic faith and who gets to decide that? maybe a person expresses their authenticity through formal acts rather that escatic jumping, crying and singing repetative worship songs. Don't be so quick to write off the traditions of discipline you came from.

Another problem, I see jesus as a great human. Not God. "Why have you forsaken me" take this cup from me but I will dealw ith it if I have to." Sounds like comp[laining. but rememer, I don't think that is a bad thing. People need to complain..and doubt. If you believe Jesus is divine, ithink it doesn't take away from that at all if he doubted. Otherwise how can he understand everything you have been through?

Also, I don't think selfish is a bad word. Personal may be more accurate, but again. I ask the question, would people be Christian if there was no heaven or hell? Eventually it comes down to personal gain. Even if there was no heavan and hell, Chrstians talk about living a full life and a happy life. Those are "selfish" ambitions. not a bad thing. Personally, I also think that marital relationships are somehwat selfish. I would not stay with my SO if he was always awful too me or never did anything good for me. That would be considered an abusive relationhsip. So I htink we may have to agree to disagree.

What you are assuming is that Hell is a concequence of the fall.Wheree do you come witht hat assumption? Just out of curiousity.

I think this is still on topic, Kystar asked why some Christias are afraid of doubt. I argue that it is because some of them are afraid of the idea of Jesus doubting.

Very interesting, looking forward to more info from you.
Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
Dr. Seuss (1904 - 1991)

User avatar
Ragnar
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 2820
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2005 12:26 pm
Location: Preußen (Deutschland).
Contact:

Post by Ragnar » Mon Feb 12, 2007 6:37 am

Willow wrote:Ragnar...you quoted me,
Huh? Sorry, I pressed "quote" on Gravers post, and split it from there...I thought???

Oh NO...Ragnar is confused...! :-?

User avatar
Willow
Level 86
Level 86
Posts: 2550
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2004 9:35 am
Location: Canada
Contact:

Post by Willow » Mon Feb 12, 2007 6:56 am

oops, sorry. I said the same thing and graver quoted me.

I read his post and saw his quote of me. Sorry about that.
Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
Dr. Seuss (1904 - 1991)

User avatar
Ragnar
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 2820
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2005 12:26 pm
Location: Preußen (Deutschland).
Contact:

Post by Ragnar » Mon Feb 12, 2007 10:06 am

No, no, my mistake.

Well me and Sternburg, which is rather an EXCELLENT German beer, if OSSI. :lol:

User avatar
Graver
Level 4
Level 4
Posts: 95
Joined: Fri Feb 09, 2007 2:45 pm
Contact:

Post by Graver » Mon Feb 12, 2007 10:33 am

daibanjo:
My past experiences tell me that I will, but I certainly hope that you're right. I have much stronger reasons than "because the Bible says so." Unfortunately, it comes from personal experiences, which people discount because it happened to me, and not to them. But, if this board is open to considering my personal experiences and adventures of the spirit as just as valid as the other members' then I just might have a valid point or two, eh?

Well, there is a different perspective. I believe that every single human being is naturally and invariably sinful. Every human takes evil into their body. If you'll excuse the context, consider your body a sandwich, and consider sin to be feces. When you're born, you're a nice clean sandwich. When you become aware of the world and capable of making moral decisions, the instant you commit your first sin, you just smeared some poo on your sandwich. Now, over the course of your life, you can never remove that poo, but as you live you only add more. Now, a very good person will still fall and spread the crap on their sandwich. A horrible person will spread a whole freakin lot of poo on their sandwich.

Now, let's assume that you're this chef who spent all his life and money learning how to make sandwiches, and as part of that, you know how to clean sandwiches. All you want are some nice clean sandwiches and if people would simply hand you their sandwich, ask you to clean their sandwich and trust that you will do so, then you'd gladly clean their sandwich so it will be clean of the poo when it comes time for you to decide whether to eat it or not.

Now, when the good person and the bad person die, they've still got poo on their sandwich. Both of them wouldn't let you clean their sandwich, because they didn't think you could do it. So now, these too people comes to you with poo-covered sandwiches and want you to eat it... are you going to turn to the guy with less poo on his sandwich and say "I'm going to eat your sandwich because there isn't as much poo on it as the other dude's." I have a hard time stomaching that (pun intended).

Basically, Heaven is a perfect place without sin. The only way to get into Heaven is to be without sin. The only way to be without sin is to allow Christ to clean the sin from you. If people with only a little sin were allowed into heaven, then there would still be sin, and it wouldn't be a perfect place. It'd be like eating a sandwich with only a little bit of poo on it :)

Willow: Indeed, that is a given.

I never implied that you did. I was simply responding to the comment about good returning good and bad returning bad.

I agree and disagree about your point on religion. I agree that the problem is people, I disagree that religion isn't a problem. I believe that people make religion, and thus religion is a problem. :)

Only God can decide who has authentic faith. I can only make observations about my own faith and apply it to those around me. I'm 100% incapable of deciding or knowing if someone else is truly faithful or not.

Eh, I don't think it was complaining, but I didn't expect to come into this conversation with any sort of agreement on anything, really.

I believe that people would continue to believe even without Heaven or Hell because for a great portion of jewish history, they weren't told that there was a heaven or hell and believed anyway.

Hell isn't associated with the fall except that if Lucifer hadn't fallen and been cast into hell, he wouldn't have tempted Eve and humanity wouldn't have fallen.
Maybe not?

User avatar
Jescissa
Level 22
Level 22
Posts: 643
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2006 1:51 pm
Location: Wales
Contact:

Post by Jescissa » Mon Feb 12, 2007 12:19 pm

Graver wrote:But, if this board is open to considering my personal experiences and adventures of the spirit as just as valid as the other members' then I just might have a valid point or two, eh?
You have no worries on that score :-D We all hear each other out here and no one will bash your beliefs if you also refrain from bashing others'.

I believe that when we are born we are neutral, our capacity for good and evil is equal, so those forces are cancelled out. As time goes by, most of us stay around the neutral line, dipping over the edge either way as experience winds its way through our lives. We're not predisposed to walking straight over to sin and playing in it gleefully, neither are we predisposed to goodness. We're just humans trying to walk the middle path - the higher path is too ambitious for most of us to walk 24/7, we run the risk of tripping over the neutral line and hitting the lower path as our egos grow from all the good works we're doing, and the lower path is something people usually try their hardest to stay away from yet can't always avoid for one reason or another.

I don't believe in sin, neither do I believe in hell. Probably because belief in one means you have to believe in the other.
"If you trust in yourself and believe in your dreams and follow your star...you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy. Goodbye." - Miss Tick, Terry Pratchett's Wee Free Men

User avatar
Willow
Level 86
Level 86
Posts: 2550
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2004 9:35 am
Location: Canada
Contact:

Post by Willow » Mon Feb 12, 2007 7:38 pm

Don't worry Ragnar, a few of my posts are aided by a bit of Gwurtztramiener (sp)

Just got back from Quebec...DAMN the French make some good beer!

Graver: Agreeing to disagree...I love it!
Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
Dr. Seuss (1904 - 1991)

User avatar
katsu
Level 12
Level 12
Posts: 341
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2004 11:55 am
Location: The Netherlands
Contact:

Post by katsu » Mon Feb 12, 2007 11:15 pm

Ah, the old concept of Good/Evil.
If I might quote a very renowned fictional character:

Humbug!

Has anyone seen these concepts outside of human behavior? When I see a predator feasting upon a newborn animal is that evil? Certain flies and wasps burrow themselves into a host and kill them from the inside by eating them alive, is that evil?
No!
This is just their nature.

Only man has been arrogant enough to label nature. And remember, history has always been (re)written by the victor, not by the loser.....(even the 'Holy books' :lol: )
/|\

User avatar
Ragnar
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 2820
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2005 12:26 pm
Location: Preußen (Deutschland).
Contact:

Post by Ragnar » Tue Feb 13, 2007 12:18 am

Graver wrote: When you're born, you're a nice clean sandwich.
You have never seen a new born then?
Graver wrote:Basically, Heaven is a perfect place without sin. The only way to get into Heaven is to be without sin. The only way to be without sin is to allow Christ to clean the sin from you. If people with only a little sin were allowed into heaven, then there would still be sin, and it wouldn't be a perfect place.
EVERY ONE PLEASE NOTE;

So. What Graver is saying is that Daibanjo is correct;
Daibanjo wrote:Let's begin with the devout jew who loves the god of abraham isaac and jacob. who worships him all his days and keeps the law and the guidance of the prophets. however he does not accept jesus was the messiah. Instead he is waiting for the messiah to come. Then there is the compassionate moslem who also loves and worships the same god. who sees jihad, the holy war, not as violence to the unbeliever but as the war he fights within himself to try to become a person worthy of the presence of god. He gives willingly to those less fortunate and prays every day. The devout hindu who deals kindly with all around and also lives in such a way that heaven will welcome him. I could go on about all faiths, even my own, but what about all the millions of good and decent people, real saints in all their deeds, But according to the christian faith they are going to the same hell as hitler, stalin, the serial killers and every truly evil person.
What then of US?

Nice religion you have there boy. #-o

I can assure you, there is no place for that kind of religio-fascism in Odinns halls either. Unless, that is, we get hungry.

User avatar
Graver
Level 4
Level 4
Posts: 95
Joined: Fri Feb 09, 2007 2:45 pm
Contact:

Post by Graver » Tue Feb 13, 2007 1:13 am

Wow... nice moderation! I honestly answer a question and you mock my beliefs for it! I guess the vaunted religious tolerance only applies when its other people scrutinizing your faith. Nice little one-way street there.

If you're simply being a troll and baiting me to get the answers you want so you can persecute my beliefs, then I don't see a reason why I should answer questions posed to me anymore. I was attempting to answer valid questions and provide insight, since I am here for the purpose of asking questions and having insight provided to me.

I haven't spoken ill of you or your beliefs, and I've held my tongue several times when you and a few other members have done so to mine. I don't see how this can be considered acceptable by a genre of religion that holds tolerance as so highly valuable. And especially since it is being displayed by the STAFF from a site specifically tailored to such a tolerant aspect of religion.

Everyone else, don't get me wrong. I know that one member's trolling and intolerance does not speak for you all. The majority of you have been very tolerant and inviting. I'm just using the example of this particular moderator who has seen fir to spam and bait me anytime I respond with my own beliefs, which leads me to assume that this site DOESN'T promote religious tolerance and doesn't encourage equal fair opinions and beliefs.

I believe you're wrong. You believe I'm wrong. Yet, I'm the one at fault for believing you're wrong, because you're most definitely right.

Did I just hear a nice clear ring of hypocrisy? Yes, I think I did!

I'm going to continue posting here as I am here on a valid search for the various beliefs contained in this site (well, that is if I am not banned for speaking ill of a Moderator). However, I don't think it would be appropriate for me to respond to bait anymore, as it is obviously just that, and serves no constructive purpose other than to somehow intimidate me away from learning about paganism and helping the spread of intolerance in this site.
Maybe not?

User avatar
Ragnar
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 2820
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2005 12:26 pm
Location: Preußen (Deutschland).
Contact:

Post by Ragnar » Tue Feb 13, 2007 1:54 am

Graver wrote: I haven't spoken ill of you or your beliefs,
You have condemned a large majority of the earths population to what you describe as "Hell". Hows THAT for starters?

And you do not know what my belief is. So how do you know?

User avatar
forgotten oceans
Level 17
Level 17
Posts: 489
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2005 4:08 am
Location: J'ville, Tx
Contact:

Post by forgotten oceans » Tue Feb 13, 2007 2:27 am

I've tried very hard to be nice and give you fair chance as not all Christains are bad ppl, but you set yourself up, no one did it to you. You come seeking knowledage, that's fine, I commend you, but you run in and shout 'I hate the world, hurry, tell me why I shouldn't'. That's not gonna fly here. You almost pick fights as if you need a valid reason to hate Pagans to feel better about yourself and not seem hypocritical. I thought you might play nice, but RFM seems right about you, you just want answears but aren't willing to look for them. You seem to only want the easy way, when you should know better, anything easy is junk. When I first found this site, I spend days on end without sleep reading through every post I could find, if I still had no answears, then I asked, but not before trying the search button.

If you had taken the time to read and get to know us, you'd know that the Mod you complain about is very dear here, and if you hadn't insulted him I would be typeing a very different post, one that might help put you in better graces with PL members. You went to far without a map and fell off the cliff. I for one am usually very tolerant, but you will NOT fly up at Ragnar with out some sorta backing! I'm not a mod by anymeans, but these ppl are like family to me and I'd defend any one of them to the death. They're good ppl who work hard to carve out a life for themselves in the real world and you will NOT start flinging mud in our sanctuary, is that clear?!?! :evil: :evil: Ragnar, who you complain is unjust, has always been around to help, he's the best example of tough love I know of, yeah, he's bias, but I don't care, truth be told we all are bias, even you Graver. If you can't play nice, I suggest you leave.
Maybe now you're starting to understand that while I may have been born predispositioned to be pretty batty, my parents saw to it that it was a certainty and completely unavoidable. -Me

User avatar
Kystar
Level 57
Level 57
Posts: 1684
Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 7:46 am
Location: White Oak, PA
Zodiac: Cancer
Contact:

Post by Kystar » Tue Feb 13, 2007 4:30 am

First off, I did ask about doubt...but then I asked later "What is sin?"

Disobediance to God doesn't fly here...since our definition of "God" is nothing like yours.

The concept that a child, who has never been alive before, a beautiful new spirit, is naturally and inherently EVIL because they are invariably SINFUL is one of the main sticking points I have with the concept of sin. If that is true, then as a child, did Jesus not SIN, since children's sins come because THEY DON'T KNOW ANY BETTER?

Children are born with only instinct...they are the most natural of humans...the closest to our wild cousins. The Divine made us all, and we are all related. Children work from their animal instincts until Human Logic and Manners are taught to them. That is why children can be cruel...because Pack Mentality is sometimes cruel.

The thought that a small child, who is too young to understand, but who sins regardless, dies and is punished, is too horrific for me to accept your god as a loving parent.

"Because I said so," didn't work for my human parents, why should it work for my divine parent?

Ragnar is short with his anwers, but entirely fair when he cuts someone down...I should know, I've been on the end of his verbal sword!
You say "Witch" like it's a bad thing!

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests