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Posted: Sat Mar 18, 2006 6:34 am
by Kelreth
Jesus in the bible talks to the demons like he knows them personally. He doesnt command as much as ask them to leave :evil:

Posted: Sat Mar 18, 2006 7:50 pm
by Crazy Healer Lady
Are you sure?

*flips through bible*

Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 4:44 am
by Willow
You know, this whole idea of Satan is starting to get to me.

I mean why is some guys entire purpose in his immortal life to drag everyone he can into hell. Beyond that, if in theory he knows his days are numbered, why doesn't he make up with the big guy. I mean everyone can change right?

Even more confusing, I thought angels didn't have free will. Was it taken away from them after Satan?

I don't make a very good Christian if I don't believe in Satan or sin do I?

Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 6:52 am
by Kelreth
@CHL
well maybe not best friends, but hes not really pissed off at them. he talked to them, then sent them out. that just set off some bells in my head when i heard it, just didnt make sense

@willow
there in lied my problem

Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 2:03 pm
by Crazy Healer Lady
The Satan thing really does make no sense. There was not really much talk of Satan until they wanted to put all Pagans out of their misery. There must always be a scapegoat.

Satan is one thing I don't have much problem calling entirely fictional. I can see some validation in the rest of the Xian stuff, but not Satan.

Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 2:53 pm
by Rain ForestMoon
Kelreth wrote:Jesus in the bible talks to the demons like he knows them personally. He doesnt command as much as ask them to leave :evil:
The thing about demons in the bible needs to be viewed in the proper historical context:
In those days (and for a long time before and afterwards) it was believed that mental illness is caused by being possessed by demons.

So stories of Jesus driving out demons are in fact stories about someone being cured of mental illness.
There you have it. A new dimension to christianity: Jesus the psychiatrist!!!!

Blessings

Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 2:59 pm
by Rain ForestMoon
Willow wrote:You know, this whole idea of Satan is starting to get to me.

I mean why is some guys entire purpose in his immortal life to drag everyone he can into hell. Beyond that, if in theory he knows his days are numbered, why doesn't he make up with the big guy. I mean everyone can change right?

Even more confusing, I thought angels didn't have free will. Was it taken away from them after Satan?

I don't make a very good Christian if I don't believe in Satan or sin do I?
That is one of the problems with Christianity:

It is a religion based on salvation.
But without damnation there is no need for salvation.
Therefore without damnation Christianity really does not make sense.
And it seems that christianity has chosen the satanic model of damnation (as has Islam, by the way).

So: Without satan no damnation. And without damnation no salvation. And without salvation no christianity. Therefore: Without satan no christianity.......

Blessings

Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 4:23 pm
by scoia
Rain ForestMoon wrote: So: Without satan no damnation. And without damnation no salvation. And without salvation no christianity. Therefore: Without satan no christianity
Exactly. It's a creed that is completely unabalanced in my opinion. It's obsessed with the idea of "banishing" evil for the sake of good, etc.

I feel strongly that you must realise that good and evil are present in everything, and you can't remove them. The whole christian ethos seems to run contrary to all ideas of nature and the natural world.

It's an archaic mode of thought, and a very masculine one. A violent idea in and of itself, that the "evil" can be torn from the world (evil=non christian), the natural world can be raped, the natural prcoesses of thought forgotten. It's ridiculous.

Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 5:37 pm
by Willow
That s true,

I have taken my own thoughts a bit further to question if evil exists even.

Feel free to disagree.

There are things like natural disasters that suck but are just that natural. If we didn't interpret them as disasters they wouldn't be viewed that way.

Everything else seems to come from choice and consequences. War, Holocaust, Abuse, murder, etc all come from someones choice and the consequences thereof. The concept of evil seems to be an ambiguous floating cloud that is used to describe those who make choices with negative consequences. Anyway, that is just some other thinking I have been doing, I am not convinced I am right by any stretch of the imagination.

Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 12:26 am
by Paganlight
I never really believed in Hell or Satan either, when I was Christian. It didn't really make sense to me, either.

scoia wrote:
I feel strongly that you must realise that good and evil are present in everything, and you can't remove them. The whole christian ethos seems to run contrary to all ideas of nature and the natural world.

It's an archaic mode of thought, and a very masculine one. A violent idea in and of itself, that the "evil" can be torn from the world (evil=non christian), the natural world can be raped, the natural prcoesses of thought forgotten. It's ridiculous.
Exactly! That is precisely how I feel.

Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 2:30 am
by Ragnar
Willow wrote: I mean why is some guys entire purpose in his immortal life to drag everyone he can into hell.
Because their "god's" purpose is to drag every one into "heaven".

Equal and opposite reaction. Equal (and opposite) opportunity, employers.

Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2006 3:08 am
by VoudunLady25
Satan is just evil personified. People sense negativity and evil spirits in their area so their way of dealing with it is calling it the prescence of the Devil. Also, its just an excuse to hide behind in order to eliminate people and practices who they don't like. All cultures are afraid of evil so if create an entity that personifies all that and convince them enough to believe in it..

Its all a scam. The Devil is a scam. I used to believe in him, (and got some SERIOUS nightmares from what I thought were demons) but they I just thought one day and said.. "Why would God create an entity that has equal power over our lives and souls?". So, I stopped believing in a devil. And sure enough his presence went away :-D

Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2006 4:29 am
by Ragnar
Regardless of where the name originated from, the idea as generally accepted today, of satan, is a pure christian invention.

Why should we even concern ourselves with this figment of a drugged crazed desert peasant religion?

We are Heathens or Pagans here. Surely what the freaks get up to is non of our concern? By definition. :-?
So, I stopped believing in a devil. And sure enough his presence went away Very Happy
Good on you lass. :-D

Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2006 9:40 am
by Crazy Healer Lady
I was talking with what I would term one of the best Christians out there last night. This is one of those that can cancel out thousands of Fundy banters, and make the religion beautiful. The way he described Satan it made me realize what I believe evil to be: Lack of Divine. It's not "evil" but is so far away from Great Mystery that it can feel that there is no Divine in it, although in my spirituality I see that as impossible as we are all a bit of the Divine and as it is Creator we are together Co-Creators, and evil is not "evil" but so far away from the Divine that it cannot be detected by us limited beings. I do not believe in any form of ruling evil entity, never have except fear as a child and the collective destruction that I felt the trees quivering over, heightened by the drama that a person of that age goes through, but I do believe in "demons" which are so fargone from the Divine in themselves that they do black things and harm and hurt, but how can it be against Divine if they are a part of the Divine? How can there really be evil??

Sorry... 12 hrs straight of chattering about this stuff and no sleep... must... debunk... evil... and... sleep...

Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2006 10:01 am
by Ragnar
Interesting.

Who is that "scientist" with the white hair and beard that has offered a million dollars to any one that can prove psychic phenomena exist?

Goes out of his way to debunk ANYTHING psychic. In that he includes every thing that we talk about here. (Rudi something or other?)

THAT is who I think of when I read CHL's post.

To me, a prpoer scientist does NOT go out with a preconcieved idea of the result. This idiot DOES.

That is not "science".

I can not see the reason behind his hatred, unless his "research" is being funded by the vatican or something.

HIS purpose is, therefore, to "take away the devine".