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Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 1:11 pm
by Antonius Varus
Why have you got me quoting that?

Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 1:33 pm
by Kystar
Historically speaking, continuing the family line was a big thing in those days. It was seen as every man's duty, chosen by god or not, to wed and sire heirs. If Jesus was an honorable man who followed the customs of his society, it is very probable that he wed and sired children upon his wife. The fact that she isn't mentioned in the Bible means nothing really, except that there were things that weren't considered important to the religious messege that the Bible was sending.

Of course, the arguement that the Bible can't be considered 100% reliable due to the 2000 years it has had to be twekked, edited and translated can be used in favor of the idea that some aspects of Jesus's life was omitted.

Could it be possible that things were re-written to PROTECT Jesus's family if the Romans were killing Christians with gleeful abandon? Could it be that things were hidden to protect those most at risk? Wouldn't the Romans torture any known family of the condemned man? Wouldn't the JEws who set Jesus up want to make sure everything escaped their "Cleansing"? That's my take on things, when I consider the question.

Historically speaking, bachelorhood was considered disgraceful then...not carrying on the family line was practically sinful...or heresy.

Oh well...we'll never convince others to see the logic of the other side of the argument...which is why this is a lot like trying to convince a thunderstorm to go away.

Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 1:37 pm
by Rain ForestMoon
Antonius Varus wrote:Why have you got me quoting that?
Probably because I am a Luddite and not too good at cutting, pasting and deleting.... sorry about that, it was a quote from Andy.

Blessings

Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 1:58 pm
by Andy
Kystar wrote:Historically speaking, continuing the family line was a big thing in those days. It was seen as every man's duty, chosen by god or not, to wed and sire heirs. If Jesus was an honorable man who followed the customs of his society, it is very probable that he wed and sired children upon his wife. The fact that she isn't mentioned in the Bible means nothing really, except that there were things that weren't considered important to the religious messege that the Bible was sending.

Of course, the arguement that the Bible can't be considered 100% reliable due to the 2000 years it has had to be twekked, edited and translated can be used in favor of the idea that some aspects of Jesus's life was omitted.

Could it be possible that things were re-written to PROTECT Jesus's family if the Romans were killing Christians with gleeful abandon? Could it be that things were hidden to protect those most at risk? Wouldn't the Romans torture any known family of the condemned man? Wouldn't the JEws who set Jesus up want to make sure everything escaped their "Cleansing"? That's my take on things, when I consider the question.

Historically speaking, bachelorhood was considered disgraceful then...not carrying on the family line was practically sinful...or heresy.

Oh well...we'll never convince others to see the logic of the other side of the argument...which is why this is a lot like trying to convince a thunderstorm to go away.
Yes the bible has been tweeked etc, however at least there is a book dated over 2000 years old, guys if christianity isnt true, then how come it still has the respect it had over 2000 years ago! How come Christianity is still making an effect in this world today, if it was rubbish it would have died out by now! The answer, because God is still working on this earth 2000 years after the book was written!

I could also turn around and say that if the Bible has changed a bit over the last 2000 years, and I know that Paganism dosnt have any religious books, apart from notes pagans have made, whos to say that word of mouth hasn't changed?

Andy

Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 3:17 pm
by Stormy
Andy wrote:if christianity isnt true, then how come it still has the respect it had over 2000 years ago! How come Christianity is still making an effect in this world today
Well, finally, I must speak on this - the facts, if you would be willing to honestly explore them with an open mind Andy - will point to the fact that Christianity has survived and prospered because those who have backed it were politically savy. Unlike Pagan religions which felt no need to force thier views on others, Christianity DID and Christian leaders from then to now have used every political trick, every social trick, every play of power that they could in order to further their beliefs and their interests.

FACTS:
Early Christian churches were purposely built on the Pagan holy sites because it was one way to get the Pagans to come there and another way to squash the Pagan religions.

The early Catholic church came up with the idea of not allowing priests to marry based SOLELY on the fact that a married priest would pass any of his worldly wealth on to his heirs and the church wanted that passed on to THEM.

When early Christians couldn't get Pagans to abandon their Gods and Goddesses, they turned them into Saints in order to coax the Pagans into Christianity by making their Gods and Goddesses still available to them.

I could go on, but I honestly don't believe that any amount of historical fact will make you actually THINK about your religious beliefs, let alone ours. That is your choice, your right. But I would ask that if you are not honestly ready to approach the subject of Christianity and Paganism with an open mind, a third person perspective instead of a "LA LA LA I AM RIGHT THE BIBLE IS BEYOND QUESTION" fingers in your ears additude, then perhaps you should re-consider posting here.

Honestly Andy, I am on your side so far as I think you should be treated with respect and fairly on the boards - but if you cannot approach these subjects with a willingness to honestly LEARN something, with a willingness to honestly question your own faith, well, it's only going to lead to more and more problems and arguements and I DON'T want that here.

I can tell you from personal experience as one who was actually baptised by immersion not so many years ago in a futile attempt to force myself to accept Christianity because I was taught to fear questioning my faith - there is NOTHING to fear. I'm not saying that honestly questioning your faith will lead you down the same path it did for me - I'm just saying that you have nothing to fear. Not your God, nor mine, nor anyone elses, will ever condemn you or punish you for questioning the way you interact with the divine. Perhaps all the things you are experiencing with falling books and shutting doors is the divine trying to get you to pay attention to the fact that you should NOT be afraid. The Christian God is not the jealous, punishing being that all too many Christians are led to believe.

Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 5:02 pm
by Kystar
Andy wrote: I could also turn around and say that if the Bible has changed a bit over the last 2000 years, and I know that Paganism dosnt have any religious books, apart from notes pagans have made, whos to say that word of mouth hasn't changed?

Andy
It has changed, but that's fine because it makes sense. The world is in a constant state of flux, it doesn't make sense that a faith based on the Mother Earth wouldn't flux with her! Things that used to be desperately important centuries ago are considered quaint or barbaric. Think about it, many old faiths call for a scarifice of blood or life! But, now we realize that it was a custom based on fear of what the divine could do to us!

As for why the Bible and Christianity are still so strong in our world, I think Stormy outlined it precisly. The old Christian churches were ruthless when it came to forcing others to accept their doctrines. Half the wars the world suffered through wouldn't have been fought if the Catholic Church hadn't gained the Political power it did in the Dark Ages. PEOPLE ARE STILL AFRAID OF THEIR GOD! It's ingrained in them from early childhood!
The lesson that if you're not good, God will send you to Hell is still crammed into people's heads! It's not love that keeps most going to church, it's fear. I walked away from that because I didn't fell that fear was a proper motivator.

Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 2:29 am
by Paganlight
Stormy wrote:
When early Christians couldn't get Pagans to abandon their Gods and Goddesses, they turned them into Saints in order to coax the Pagans into Christianity by making their Gods and Goddesses still available to them.

I could go on, but I honestly don't believe that any amount of historical fact will make you actually THINK about your religious beliefs, let alone ours. That is your choice, your right. But I would ask that if you are not honestly ready to approach the subject of Christianity and Paganism with an open mind, a third person perspective instead of a "LA LA LA I AM RIGHT THE BIBLE IS BEYOND QUESTION" fingers in your ears additude, then perhaps you should re-consider posting here.

Honestly Andy, I am on your side so far as I think you should be treated with respect and fairly on the boards - but if you cannot approach these subjects with a willingness to honestly LEARN something, with a willingness to honestly question your own faith, well, it's only going to lead to more and more problems and arguements and I DON'T want that here.

I can tell you from personal experience as one who was actually baptised by immersion not so many years ago in a futile attempt to force myself to accept Christianity because I was taught to fear questioning my faith - there is NOTHING to fear. I'm not saying that honestly questioning your faith will lead you down the same path it did for me - I'm just saying that you have nothing to fear. Not your God, nor mine, nor anyone elses, will ever condemn you or punish you for questioning the way you interact with the divine. Perhaps all the things you are experiencing with falling books and shutting doors is the divine trying to get you to pay attention to the fact that you should NOT be afraid. The Christian God is not the jealous, punishing being that all too many Christians are led to believe.
210% agreed! With EVERYTHING you've said! I just quoted the last part of your post to make an example - Brigid is a Celtic Goddess, and one I've followed for quite a while - she was transformed into a Saint - you may have heard of her, Andy - St. Brigit.

Kystar - again, I agree!

Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 8:02 am
by 2Crunchy
Andy wrote: How come Christianity is still making an effect in this world today, if it was rubbish it would have died out by now! The answer, because God is still working on this earth 2000 years after the book was written!

Andy
The very obvious flaw in this argument is the presence of other religions that are also very much alive and kicking and having a serious effect in this world today. As a Xtian I would assume that you see Islam as "rubbish". Why has that religion not "died out"? It is having quite a striking effect on our world.

If you are going for antiquity, what about Buddhism (quite a bit older than Xtianity)? If it was rubbish, wouldn't it have failed long ago? There are about 360 million practitioners. Or Hinduism, older still and 900 million practitioners?

Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 12:25 pm
by runewulf
Well, if you want to know why christianity still has so much clout (not respect, btw... respect is earned, not forced down people's throats ), then study the real history, not just the dogmatic crap. Christianity insinuated itself first with nobles, then the rich. It became a Political Power. It then went on a slow and insidious propaganda campaign that lasted well over 1200 years to bring others under it's power. That is the simple fact.

Read the papal writs and orders that are publicly available... Hela, watch the dicovery channel and learning channel for an overview (one of the two actually put together a fairly accurate overview of the growth and spread of christianity a few years ago.

The christian churches haven't gotten where they are due to respect, they've gotten there due to political power, fear and brainwashing... and quite often, by oppressing and/or killing those who disagreed... another fact.

Think on it, simple truths... you can argue them all you want, but that doesn't change the fact that their still true and the information can be obtained from any place with scholarly works.

Wassail

Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 7:21 pm
by Crazy Healer Lady
We are forgetting something, as well.
Yes, Xianity has survived because of politics, but it also speaks to a large population's desire to be one with God. It speaks to people intimately, just as whatever form of Paganism speaks to us. Christianity can be so beautiful. All religion is beautiful.
Just wanted to add that. So yes, political control, but we cannot deny that some feel it is best for them.

Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 7:39 am
by Stormy
Crazy Healer Lady wrote:We are forgetting something, as well.
Yes, Xianity has survived because of politics, but it also speaks to a large population's desire to be one with God. It speaks to people intimately, just as whatever form of Paganism speaks to us. Christianity can be so beautiful. All religion is beautiful.
Just wanted to add that. So yes, political control, but we cannot deny that some feel it is best for them.
A very good point =D>

Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 9:54 am
by runewulf
That is true... some folks it is right for, at least it's core. That said though, it persists in it's dominance because of the power it has gained in the community and political arena.

Wassail

Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 7:46 pm
by Debbrah
davisherm wrote: The article I linked to postulates that there may have been two Christian churches. One that followed Jesus' family and the teachings that he set forth and then the Catholic Church, which pruned Christ's message to what they wanted to say and viciously attacked the other Church; possibly where Heresy first cropped up.
I haven't the time/energy to follow the link... but isn't it the nazarenes? The ones who claim his brother James became the new head of the movement when Jesus died?

Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2005 7:15 pm
by davisherm
Deb,

Yup, the second Christian Church may have been the root of the Church of the Nazarenes. And the way the article reads, Jesus didn't die at that point and was still somewhere in what is now Israel, spreading his teachings. Mary Magdalene and her children fled to what is now France and (I think) with Jesus' brother James, started the movement in western Europe.

The article's an interesting read, but it's very time consuming. Worth it if you ever get the chance.

Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2005 12:00 pm
by Galaxy Girl
Here's what I know:

Jesus came here on a divine mission. He did not "discover" his purpose one fine day. He knew it before he was born, while he was still in Mary's womb. He knew it when He was born and the Wise Men came. He reminded Joseph and Mary when they lost him for 3 days, that he was about his Father's business. He was 12 years old.

His every thought and action was in line with His mission. He never deviated from it for one second. He didn't come here to be an ordinary man and live an ordinary life. He knew he would be put to death, so He wouldn't have dreamed of having a family and leaving them with no one to support them or care for them. He knew better.

People will come up with all kinds of weird theories to sell books, and I even heard on Coast to Coast recently, that aliens have written these books to further their agenda. It may have been the "good witch" that said it, but I'm not really certain....could have been someone else. But nowhere in the bible does it say that Jesus was married. If a woman had sex before marriage, she was stoned. It does say that Peter was married, so if Jesus was, it would have said so too.

Now don't ask me why the Pope, who claims to be the successor of Peter, isn't allowed to marry. But I'm sure there's a good explanation...somewhere.