Jesus may have had kids?

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davisherm
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Post by davisherm » Thu Sep 22, 2005 6:11 am

Andy wrote:
I dont believe Jesus had kidss as he didnt have sex, christans dont believe in Sex before marrage!
Andy,

As the Jesus who died a virgin on the Cross at Golgotha is the cornerstone of your faith, I will not try to dissuade you from what you belive to be the truth.

However, historically speaking Jesus was not, in fact, a Christian. He was Jewish. The religion that blossomed from His teachings is called Christianity, but He, Himelf was not a Christian. One might argue that he was the first Christian but that's just sementics. (Which is all I'm really arguing here anyway :-D but the little deatails bug me.)
Andy wrote: Jesus wasnt a rabbi, hence its not abnormal for him to be married. Sex is not seem as sinful, unless it is outside of marrage, sex is a persoanl sign of effection and shouldnt be given to anyone you meet.
Just a point of interest, I'd appreciate it you'd word that a little differently. Your general tone has been friendly and conversative. But instead of arguing your point about Jesus not having been married because he wasn't an official Rabbi, you'd made a stunning implication that the people on this board are off having sex with everybody and their brother.

Now granted, that may have been intended as a social comentary on today's youth and the moral corruption in society in general. If it were, I'd probably agree with you. But it doesn't read that way. While I hesitate to say that you've been preaching to us, we're the only ones here reading this. And I don't appreciate the implication about the people on this board. Please consider changing it.

Blessed Be.
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Post by Andy » Thu Sep 22, 2005 8:12 am

davisherm wrote:
Andy wrote:
I dont believe Jesus had kidss as he didnt have sex, christans dont believe in Sex before marrage!
Andy,

As the Jesus who died a virgin on the Cross at Golgotha is the cornerstone of your faith, I will not try to dissuade you from what you belive to be the truth.

However, historically speaking Jesus was not, in fact, a Christian. He was Jewish. The religion that blossomed from His teachings is called Christianity, but He, Himelf was not a Christian. One might argue that he was the first Christian but that's just sementics. (Which is all I'm really arguing here anyway :-D but the little deatails bug me.)
Andy wrote: Jesus wasnt a rabbi, hence its not abnormal for him to be married. Sex is not seem as sinful, unless it is outside of marrage, sex is a persoanl sign of effection and shouldnt be given to anyone you meet.
Just a point of interest, I'd appreciate it you'd word that a little differently. Your general tone has been friendly and conversative. But instead of arguing your point about Jesus not having been married because he wasn't an official Rabbi, you'd made a stunning implication that the people on this board are off having sex with everybody and their brother.

Now granted, that may have been intended as a social comentary on today's youth and the moral corruption in society in general. If it were, I'd probably agree with you. But it doesn't read that way. While I hesitate to say that you've been preaching to us, we're the only ones here reading this. And I don't appreciate the implication about the people on this board. Please consider changing it.

Blessed Be.
True about the christians, Jesus came to show us how to be 'Christlike', hence creating christians.

"Jesus wasnt a rabbi, hence its not abnormal for him to be married. Sex is not seem as sinful, unless it is outside of marrage, sex is a persoanl sign of effection and shouldnt be given to anyone you meet." - Andy

No offence but I did not name anyone, I did not name a religion, i did not condem anyone. All I was saying is that God has tought Christians to have sex when married, therefore Jesus (his son) would not have done so.

Please dont persume Im attacking you, I was simply answering a statment that someone made.

Andy

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Post by davisherm » Thu Sep 22, 2005 8:35 am

Andy,

No, you were not simply answering a statement that somebody made.
You were making a point about your faith and that Jesus did not have sex, and let's not rehash all that.

The problem I have with your post is that after establishing the fact that you don't believe Jesus may have taken a wife and born children, you saw fit to state that, "sex is a persoanl sign of effection and shouldnt be given to anyone you meet."

This to me sounds pretty condescending, preachy, and holier than thou. True, you didn't name names or religions. But you didn’t have to.

Think of where you are, Andy.

This board is dedicated to Paganism. The overwhelming majority of the people on this board are Pagans. One would have to surmise that the people you're preaching at would be... I don't know... the Pagans? And you don’t have to name names. Your implication was wide open. Which means it's applied to me, my fiancé, my best friend, and all of the other members on this board that I've come to love over past two years I've been here. And I do not appreciate you implying that we are sluts or man-whores, or maybe if those terms are too coarse, perhaps 'harlot' would be a better term. If we were face to face, you probably wouldn't have said such a thing, ever. Not because you're afraid of how I'd hit you in the mouth after you called the woman I'm going to marry a whore, but becaue decent people don't say things like that.

You may say that you're simply here to defend your website and your beliefs, and if that's all you're really here for, I have no quarrel with you.

But do NOT come into my board and try to lecture me about how to live life. Do NOT come into my board and imply that my fellow users are simple and need to read a watered down version of the Bible to understand where you're coming from. And especially don’t try to hide what you’re doing behind ‘correcting’ our misinterpretations of the Bible. I can’t speak for everybody here, but a lot of us were born into families that practiced the very same faith you do. And I guarantee I know just as much about it as you do.

You wanted to clear the air? Speak clearly and concisely. Do not leave what you say open to interpretation. It can lead to confusion and now you're stuck defending your words to an upset moderator. I don't know how it is on your board, but here on the Pagan Library, we don't take kindly to Trolls.

Consider my words.
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Post by runewulf » Thu Sep 22, 2005 9:52 am

Well, if you really want to be technical here, Jesus was a rabbi, even the jews recognize this. Read the older translations of the bible, or even better, some of the original verse, which calls him such.

Two, you can't take what is written in the bible as literal truth, that's foolish. History shows us that things were changed to suit those in political power and, quite frequently, to grant the church more power and authority.

Three, the above two can been seen in pure, scholarly works by historians who are not swayed pro or con when it comes to religions.

Four, As far as god teaching us that it's not right to have sex without marraige, well, two things:

A) That would be your god, which isn't the only god, nor the supreme god, just your god. You can believe and follow such guidlines as you wish, but that doesn't mean everyone else should or has too do so.

B) Read the old testament. There was sex before marraige, sometimes even directed by your own "God the Father" himself. So, if one were to read that more realistically, it's not the "Sex before marraige" that's the issue, it's the "Sex without connection/love/affection/etc" that's likely the real issue behind it. Marriage is a formal, long term binding. Sex is an act of nature that is often tied to emotions. The two do not necessarilly go hand in hand.

Some points to ponder, if your mind is open and not clouded by any level of fanatacism, which I'm not saying it is, just that if you truly have an open mind, think on these things, visit a library or university and look them up for yourself. Learn.


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Post by Kystar » Thu Sep 22, 2005 6:21 pm

Bravo, Davish and Runewulf!

My only comment to add is that I parted ways from the Christian religion when I realized the problem with the whole system is the Bible.

Here you have an entire network of churches, denominations and factions all gleening their code to live by from a book that has gone through AT LEAST SEVEN seperate languages.

Think about it: It was written in Hebrew, translated to Greek, then translated to Latin, then Old English, Middle English to Modern English.

Over 2000 years, it's gone through at least four seperate social upheavals in Europe alone!

The thought that intelligent people are blindly following a book that could have been completely re-written forty times makes my skin crawl!

That's why I'll never allow anyone to give me the answer of "The Bible says so" when I ask them WHY...that's why I"m now a pagan.
You say "Witch" like it's a bad thing!

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Post by antaine » Thu Sep 22, 2005 6:22 pm

For those of you who know, I am an uber-lurker. I posted this before, but I think it's time it's necro'd from the shadows.


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Re: Jesus may have had kids?

Post by Debbrah » Thu Sep 22, 2005 8:31 pm

Andy wrote:I dont believe Jesus had kidss as he didnt have sex, christans dont believe in Sex before marrage!
Modern Christians... there have been variations over time. But the claim was that he WAS married, therefore claims regarding non-marital sex have nothing to do with it.

Jesus wasnt a rabbi, hence its not abnormal for him to be married.
Since when wasn't he a Rabbi? Although I've seen arguments that this was simply an honorific as he taught, not that he was a real Rabbi. However, as most historical evidence shows that the early claims of Christians were fairly politically motivated (Mary wasn't a Virgin for several decades CE for example... wasn't important. It was more important that Jesus was of the house of David than his being the son of God) it is unlikely he would have been unwed. He had a dynasty to continue. Family was very important. Much of Jewish religious life required that the duties to family be fulfilled first. And Jesus was Jewish.
"There's not much that's contrary to nature if you just know how to coax her along a little."- Mad Amos Malone (A. D. Foster)

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Post by Debbrah » Thu Sep 22, 2005 8:37 pm

Kystar wrote:Think about it: It was written in Hebrew, translated to Greek, then translated to Latin, then Old English, Middle English to Modern English.
Don't forget compilied from pieces and scraps of "approved" sects when legalized in Rome (about 3.5 centuries post Jesus). Only those acceptable to the sects authorized BY THE GOVERNMENT made it into the Bible.... scary thought huh? Those who were playing political games and who went on to kill more Christians than Pagan Romans did were the ones who edited the first Bible.....
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Post by runewulf » Thu Sep 22, 2005 9:17 pm

Not to mention all the subtle rewrites, rewordings and minor changes to suit desired policies, agendas or political changes (i.e. letting a certain king divorce * cough *)
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Post by dragonflydrummer » Thu Sep 22, 2005 10:50 pm

Andy writes:
I dont believe Jesus had kidss as he didnt have sex, christans dont believe in Sex before marrage!
Try it -- you'll like it. I assure you.
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Post by Andy » Fri Sep 23, 2005 9:09 am

davisherm wrote:Andy,

No, you were not simply answering a statement that somebody made.
You were making a point about your faith and that Jesus did not have sex, and let's not rehash all that.

The problem I have with your post is that after establishing the fact that you don't believe Jesus may have taken a wife and born children, you saw fit to state that, "sex is a persoanl sign of effection and shouldnt be given to anyone you meet."

This to me sounds pretty condescending, preachy, and holier than thou. True, you didn't name names or religions. But you didn’t have to.

Think of where you are, Andy.

This board is dedicated to Paganism. The overwhelming majority of the people on this board are Pagans. One would have to surmise that the people you're preaching at would be... I don't know... the Pagans? And you don’t have to name names. Your implication was wide open. Which means it's applied to me, my fiancé, my best friend, and all of the other members on this board that I've come to love over past two years I've been here. And I do not appreciate you implying that we are sluts or man-whores, or maybe if those terms are too coarse, perhaps 'harlot' would be a better term. If we were face to face, you probably wouldn't have said such a thing, ever. Not because you're afraid of how I'd hit you in the mouth after you called the woman I'm going to marry a whore, but becaue decent people don't say things like that.

You may say that you're simply here to defend your website and your beliefs, and if that's all you're really here for, I have no quarrel with you.

But do NOT come into my board and try to lecture me about how to live life. Do NOT come into my board and imply that my fellow users are simple and need to read a watered down version of the Bible to understand where you're coming from. And especially don’t try to hide what you’re doing behind ‘correcting’ our misinterpretations of the Bible. I can’t speak for everybody here, but a lot of us were born into families that practiced the very same faith you do. And I guarantee I know just as much about it as you do.

You wanted to clear the air? Speak clearly and concisely. Do not leave what you say open to interpretation. It can lead to confusion and now you're stuck defending your words to an upset moderator. I don't know how it is on your board, but here on the Pagan Library, we don't take kindly to Trolls.

Consider my words.
I am in the 'Alternative Religions' board, when an alligation is made about my faith, of course i will stand up to it, like you would if the same was made about paganism.

The fact that I wasnt preaching, leads me to believe that whatever I now say on this site will be twisted into whatever way you me to look.

If I was to preach you would have know, and Like i have said I do have respect for other faiths, and I will not preach here, nor will I post prayers on your site.

I will now delete my account, as I feel any more comments I say will be twisted, making me look like something Im not.

I wish you all the best with this site

Blessings

Andy

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Post by runewulf » Fri Sep 23, 2005 9:43 am

hmmmm.... that, as with anything, is your choice. However, in all fairness, I haven't seen anyone here twisting your words, as you put it. Most of the responses have been directed to comments or postings you have made... an example "Catholics aren't Christian...", which is obviously false, since Catholicism was the first Christian religion and all others spawned from it over time. But the responses were made directly to your posts and comments.

Responding and correcting is not twisting, it's called being intelligent and stating the truth, whether absolute or from a person's individual point of view. Truth is truth, no matter what the religion is. If you have to lie or argue against solid fact to prove a point about your religion, I would think it's time to re-evaluate your belief system and/or your views on it. That's just common sense.

And then when you make cover all statements, or statements that are belief based and not factual, you really have to expect others to contradict them. Just because you believe that "Jesus loves you" doesn't mean he does. It means, in your personal paradigm that "Jesus loves you", not in the reality of everyone else. I warned you quite a while back that your way isn't the true way because there isn't any "one true way", but many, many paths that are just as valid. I warned you that if you come across in terms absolute, insinuating that your way was the one true way or that your beliefs were total truths, that folks would get defensive. I also explained why, both spiritually as well as psychologically and socialogically.


As to "defending your beliefs", if they're your beliefs, why do you have to "defend them"? Aren't you confident enough in them? I mean, when you get right down to it, all religions are lies... they're myths, all of them. Religions are created by man to guide and teach, over time, they grow and evolve and are often corrupted in various parts and to various degrees, by man, from how they were originally intended. Religion is external... the real thing that should concern you... and all of us, is spirituality. The connection to diety/the divine/god/goddess/spirit/grandfather sky/grandmother earth/etc. Whatever name you put it in, it's the connection to the divine and the walking of a path that connects you and leads you to being a good person, the "best YOU that YOU can be" is that is important.

Truly wise and spiritual people, no matter what the religion, always end up at a certain point coming to understand the above. The it's not the religion, or the book(s), etc... that matter... and they'll tell you as much. It's the being connected to Divinity and walking a path that continues to bring you closer. That path is going to be a good path, no matter what symbols you wear, whether you pray on your knees or standing in the woods or with your toes buried in the earth or with your arms spread to catch the wind or head thrown back in the moonlight or etc. etc. etc... It's all about connection and communing with Divinity.

If you choose to leave, that's your choice. However, make it for a real reason and not leaving a half truth behind about people twisting what you say. If you're going to leave for that reason, what are the truths behind that? That people here have their own beliefs that are just as valid as yours and will not change or agree with you when you make a statement that equates to either your religion being better or a statement that is just pain wrong. This is called "leaving because others won't play by your rules".

And I'm not saying you're wrong to leave. It will probably save you a lot of exasperation and stress in the long run, not to mention you won't have to keep trying to negate facts that challenge your beliefs. I'm just saying, be honest about it instead of leaving in a huff with an untrue statement about twisted words, just leave with the truth.

Wassail und Rhaido (health and safe travels)

p.s. Pagan religions have their issues as well. None of them don't have contradictions, etc. They're man made, or at least man modified, etc. just as much as the judeic religions (Jewish, Islam, Christian), as are Buddhism, Taoism, Shinto, Voudon, Mucambo, etc. etc. etc. The big difference? Most of us (though I'm sad to say, not all of us) realize this, recognize the truth in it, accept it and move on. Yes, some of the young ones who are still in a stage of "rebellion against the mainstream" are more hotheaded and uneducated, but most grow past that.

It's about the spiritual, religion is just man made dogma and rules... when done right, it's a guide for young ones to use until it's not needed anymore... that's all.
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Post by Kystar » Fri Sep 23, 2005 10:49 am

Well spoken, Runewulf!
You say "Witch" like it's a bad thing!

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Post by davisherm » Fri Sep 23, 2005 1:24 pm

Andy wrote:
I am in the 'Alternative Religions' board, when an alligation is made about my faith, of course i will stand up to it, like you would if the same was made about paganism.

The fact that I wasnt preaching, leads me to believe that whatever I now say on this site will be twisted into whatever way you me to look.

If I was to preach you would have know, and Like i have said I do have respect for other faiths, and I will not preach here, nor will I post prayers on your site.

I will now delete my account, as I feel any more comments I say will be twisted, making me look like something Im not.

I wish you all the best with this site

Blessings

Andy
I am not going to argue with you about twisting words. You’ve already made up your mind about what’s happened here, so I’m not going to try and convince you.

If you feel that you need to leave, please do.

The reason I was upset with your posts is not because you were defending what you believe to be true, but because during and after the defense, you threw in little slaps against the character and intelligence of the members of this board; implying that we are simple and promiscuous. And when I called you on it, you didn't even apologize, but started in about how we're wrong about your faith and how we're twisting your words.

I don't know how about your parents, but mine taught me that if I didn't have anything nice to say, I shouldn't say anything at all.

To be quite blunt about it, the way you were acting was just plain rude. And you still haven't apologized, but left in a huff because you perceive that we are attacking you and your beliefs.

So leave if you must. I hope you’ve learned something during your stay here. If not about the vast diversity of religions, then maybe some good old fashioned manners.

Blessed Be.
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Post by runewulf » Fri Sep 23, 2005 2:38 pm

Merci Kystar....


C'est vrai Davish, ami.... but honestly, if someone don't get it yet, you could tell them again and again and manners aren't gonna sink in. Honestly, I would say the issue has deeper roots than manners. Belief issue tied to self-image issues most likely. Either way, just breath mon frere , slow breaths... looks like c'est fini as it is.

You're right though, is bad manners...dat.

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