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Is christianity in reality a pagan religion????
Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2005 3:11 am
Up to now I had accepted the general view that christianity is one of the "abrahamic" religions. But of late I have come to a different view.
Christianity claims that Jesus was the Son of God, born of a virgin.
Anyone who has studied what the God of Abraham was like would agree that having a child by a virgin would be a most un-characteristic thing to do.
The prophet Mohammed is reported to have said: God (presumably the god of abraham) does not beget children.....
However, Gods having children (especially with virgin mothers [well, they generally were virgins to begin with] seems to have been the fashionable thing with Gods of antiquity (just look at the Greek or Roman pantheon....).
So where does this leave christianity? Are they all pagans after all? Or is the whole of christianity just a bit of a misunderstanding? or a fabrication?
Any thoughts on the matter?
Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2005 1:01 pm
Jesus was rumoured to have spent some time in Egypt. A careful examination of Egyptian mythology draws many parallels.
Here are a few excerpts from a book I'm reading called Ancient Pagan Symbols:
"The belief in a Saviour God was bron of a Virgin, often named Maria or some name meaning mare-sea-seems to have obtained among many of the ancient races. The association of Woman with Water has been given an esoteric interpretation. Water is conceived of as the 'connecting link between Spirit or pure thought and Matter or concrete form.... This is the Cosmic Element which is esoterically called Water.' (Troward's Bible Mystery and Bible Meaning, pp. 14-15) Thus water the intermeidary or 'Distributive Medium' between spirit and matter typified woman, the soul, the psychic side of man, the mother of individual life." (p.28 )
"The Egyptian Neith is also a Virgin Mother self-produced and self-sustaining, the Unknown Onem the personification of the feminine principle of life, who was believed to have brought forth Ra, the Lord of all Light, the Mighty Sun" (p.131)
"In his mighty pageant the sun was represented as the Creator, the twelve months his attendants, the twelfth month his betrayer through whom he meets his doom. He ascends into the abode of death only to rise again in the full glory of light and power for the eternal salvation of mankind. From the death and resurrection of Osiris the Egyptians drew all their hope of eternal life." (p.140)
I'm sure something's starting to click in everyone's head, right?
Here's a quote just for fun:
"That these ancient myths and customs gradually became an integral part of the Christian religion is not surprising, although it forms one of the most interesting and unusual chapters in the development of religions. We may assume, even though he contradicts us, that what makes the Christian scholar shudder is his own abysmal inconsistency, which he spent nearly two thousand years in furious contentions trying to explain away. It was the avowed purpose of the early Chrisitans to break down nature worship, which in a profligate age, had degenerated into licentious rites as indecent as they were corrupting. By their implacable persistency, the Christians succeeded in closing the temples and destroying the gods. Their mistake in not being able to dissociate a degenerate form of worship from the object worshipped, has dogged them ever since. The Church itself soon saw that neither religions nor human beings can seperate themselves from God's highest revelation to man and live; that to be in tune with the Infinite one must be subtly, mystically in tune with nature which throbs and vibrates to the harmonies of Life. And so one by one the Church slipped the old pagan rites, that the hearts of the people craved, into her ritual. In response to the desire for a visible semblance, she established saints and wayside shrines. In response to the passionate longing for the adorable feminine principle, the Church in the middle ages elevated the Great Mother again in the person of the Virgin Mother of Christ. The Church did this silently, skilfully-wisely bowing to the inevitable. Only those adherents who tried to explain as a divine miracle what was merely a common-sense adjustment to the Law of Life were left gasping, and later became the protesting protestants (still protesting) while the Church, knowing, although she cannot explain it logically, that she is one with life goes her serene way." (pp.140-142)
(Phew, that was a nasty bit to type out. )
Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2005 6:36 pm
There are many connections,
the problem with Hebrew theology is that there are so many ways to interprest it and decide what God does or does not charactersitically do. The Entire book of Job is dedicated to telling humans they have no right to even try and presume the mind of God. This leads to intersting concequences.
There are obvious pagan influences in Christianity. What has happened is a thing called sycretism. As Christianity spread it adopted parts of the host culture, that is why North Americvan, South American, African , Asian and European forms of Christianity all look so different. Best example is look at the religious art. Jesus can be brown, black or white. Many Irish Jesus' have red hair and blue eyes, despte the fact that Jesus was Jewish.
As for Pagan roots, totally. Look at Christmas and Easter, about as pagan as they come. Baptism? Pagan. The communion ceremony in catholic churches? Totally a replication of the mystery cults of ancient Rome. I hope some of this helps.
Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2005 3:54 pm
[-o< VETLE quotes Troward
It was the avowed purpose of the early Christians to break down nature worship, which in a profligate age, had degenerated into licentious rites as indecent as they were corrupting.
So just what was so indecent and corrupting about "licentious rites"? Isn't this type of moral judgement combined with stolid & elite monotheism precisely what makes Xtianity NOT
a pagan faith?
Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2005 8:05 pm
dragonflydrummer: I think the author was referring to the bathhouse-like practices of Ancient Greece and Rome. I could be mistaken, though. I don't know what the author's opinion as far as homosexual practices is so, if he has a negative opinion toward them, he might be referring to this.
Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2005 7:17 am
Yes, Xtianity did a lot to subvert open practice of homosexuality. What I am saying though is: through its very singular vision of "morality" that basically found any form of sexuality not purely serving a reproductive end, to be Evil -- Xtianity departs from Paganism.
In the Pagan world -- there seem to have been many paths and while sexual display might not have been appropriate to the worship of some deities -- it certainly was to others. The individual had (and has) the freedom to worship as they will -- including taking part in "lascivious rites". In the tunnel-vision right & wrong of Xtianity that simply is not allowed, and often was punished with torture & death. This makes for a very un-Pagan faith system, in spite of the popular features of goddesses and gods that were appropriated to make their "messiah" more attractive to the locals.
Basically neither Jesus nor YHWH ever had sex, nor did they allow the enjoyment of it in any way. This seems very un-Pagan to me.
Posted: Mon May 02, 2005 3:02 am
I do not think we should be surprised. The christian lot have stollen all our festivalls, try telling a German younger than 50 that "halloween" is in fact "Einherjar". So why should they not also have stollen our mythology? Perfect, an "off the shelf, ready made religion, no further work to do yourself, just add biggotry".
Posted: Mon May 02, 2005 11:18 pm
I don't know how it is in Germany, Ragnar -- but in the US they've developed this SANTA
character at Xmas, whose name is an amalgram of SATAN
. He's sort of the Spirit of Capitalism
, who rewards "good" kids and ignores the "bad". Of course rich children get rewarded a lot more, and the poor ones tend to get ignored. All the little kids are looking to catch him as he squeezes his obese ass down the chimney... I guess so they can negotiate with him for more toys. Then -- there's a sort of 'coming of age' that happens when they stop believing in him.
What's up with that???
Posted: Tue May 03, 2005 12:55 am
Aye, I allways wondered what happened to his fat ass when a house had central heating.
My family in Sweden have "Father Ullr", which allso has similarity with the Sammi God of Yule, which off the top of my head, I can not remember the name of (no presents for me next yule).
And don't forget, the only reason this santa burgler (who else goes around at night in disguise, climbing down chimneys?), wears red now, is because Cocal-Cola produced a series of adverts in the 20's>30's, where the "Santa" was in Coke colors. NOW try and convince ANYONE That the "traditional "santa" wears anything but red! But the BBC World service normaly mentions it coming up to Yule time. Plus "Father Ullr" is, as the Victorian "Santa", in blue or green. But this just goes to show you how in living memory, history and thousand year old tradition can be hijacked, or stollen, to serve a perverted purpose. Which is dangerously close to getting back to the subject is it not?
Well... may be not TOO close, but one can only try.
Wilhelm Reich's nightmare...
Posted: Tue May 03, 2005 6:55 am
Another weird thing the U.S. Xtians did with a pagan holiday is:
All of the traditional sexual energy
and activity around Oestre has been cartoonized into a pink & purple "Easter Bunny"
-- a rabbit that hides colored chicken eggs for the kids to find. Am I off the mark by saying this is indicative of sexual repression gone completely off the scale?
(p.s. -- they do this on the president's "White House" lawn every year....)
Posted: Tue May 03, 2005 12:59 pm
Thats DISGUSTING. Then the U.S. VOTED for him?
Na, ja, once we had an U.S. president who thought he was a doughnut (Berliner), now we have a doughnut thinks its a U.S. President. So having a pink and white fluffy rabbit in the Oval office comes as no surprise.
remember the obese ass? Well...
Posted: Tue May 03, 2005 5:38 pm
Actually -- only the Xtians voted for him...
He is a "hole" but I'm not sure there's a donut attached, heh heh...
Posted: Wed May 04, 2005 1:28 am
To get back to the topic/subject (any one remember that?)
Just because they steal our traditions, feasts and sites to turn into "churches", is no reson to suppose the christians are pagans, they are just thieves.
I have read somewhere that this Mary charachter was about 25>30 when she came up with this tale. In that day and age, why WAS she still a "virgin"? Was her husband "fireman calander on the fridge gay", or something? No offence to gays, its just an obvious option, given the prevelant culture of the jews 2000 years ago.
The ability to come up with a creative defence when finding one of your customers has got you pregnant, does not make a pagan either. (Life of Brian).
I'd walk a million miles for one of your smiles...
Posted: Wed May 04, 2005 4:54 am
Certainly the Xtian "Trinity" is gay. In The Great Cosmic Mother,
Monica Sjoo & Barbara Mor refer to it as "The Divine Homosexual Family." There's no Goddess paradigm ! The Xtian religion is so un-balanced it makes all
of its divine characters male. They were so concerned with wresting knowledge, power, and magic away from the women, they put a male "Holy Spirit" where a MOTHER should be. The strange thing to me is that they don't seem to notice She is missing...!
(ps --- what if jesus had been female? What would have changed in the story?)
Posted: Wed May 04, 2005 6:38 am
I wouldn't go so far as to say that the Xtian trinity is 'gay' as much as it is the product of a male dominated society. To suggest that a female character in the mix is equally as powerful as the male deity would weaken the base on which the xtians base their authority. You cannot dominate a class of people who see that they have an equal in authority.
I see it as a well-played power grab by xtian leaders - subdue at least half of the population and put men in control. It's worked pretty well now for, say, about 2000 years or so.