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Posted: Fri May 20, 2005 1:22 pm
by Ragnar
O.K. WRAP. please do not "rap".
Aye, this is something I have been thinking about for a while.
Heimdallr had golden teeth, a symbol for poetic speech, or spell weaving. If you have ever been on the bridge of a ship, as watch officer, at 3>4 A.M. in a summer Arctic sea. The engines are stopped, otherwise they will scare the fish.
Then the dolphins come and play around the ship. You think they are totaly silent, but then you hear their "poetry". YOU ARE THE ONLY ONE AWAKE WITHIN A THOUSAND SQUARE SEA MILES. They do sing to you. YOU are the only one that can hear them.
It is so silent, the sea is really mirror flat. only the splashes of the children... Damn, I must stop getting sentimentle.
You know that if you fall into the sea they will help you.
They will keep the sharks away. And, yes, sharks do swim in the Arctic waters, they just do not often eat. They will keep you above water. How many of the "old sailors" stories can you remember? In these circumstances... THEY ARE TRUE:youre song is the song of the dolphins. Heimdallr.

As an edit, I hope that made sense. I know what I mean.

Re: Inquiring minds want to know...

Posted: Fri May 20, 2005 6:35 pm
by Stormy
dragonflydrummer wrote: Along those lines -- something I could never figure out was how could Heimdallr have had nine mothers? How would that work?
Well... sort of totally OT, but, they can (and frequently have) produced mice with multiple parents. They take a number of fertile eggs in the 4 cell stage, use an enzyme to break down the outer sack covering the cells, gently "squish" them together and the multiple eggs begin to grow as one egg. They have produced mice with up to 26 parents this way - 13 mothers and 13 fathers. I saw pictures of it when I was still in Jr. High School in the Science Daily (?) Magazine, or was it Science Weekly - they were some REALLY cool mice - one of them came out divided perfectly down the center of the back (color wise) where on one side there was a black stripe and opposit it a white one - it had 26 stripes. Totally cool :-D
OK, majorly Off Topic post done now - can you tell that my mind has been bouncing around from topic to topic all day? Don't know what's exactly up with it, almost like I'm having all those nuerons firing away on multiple topics and trying to thread them all together into a cohesive mesh - interesting thing is, most of the stuff can be linked together somehow - perhaps my run away brain today is simply showing me how we are all interelated - which, then logically concludes that, yes, Christianity is a Pagan religion :cheers:
Whew, talk about taking the long way around

Stormy :lol:

Posted: Fri May 20, 2005 8:24 pm
by Ragnar
I suppose there could also be the possibility of multiple wives Like Muslims... or was it Mormons? Na! they're all the same any way.
Except the vikings did not have polygamy. However the Uncles of a child were expected to be "as Fathers", and the Aunties... well you see the principal. And stormy, keep taking the medicine. It gets better... honestly.

Posted: Sat May 21, 2005 7:00 am
by Stormy
Ragnar wrote:And stormy, keep taking the medicine. It gets better... honestly.
ROFLMAO - probably because I ran out of the medicine...
:bounce: :compress: :booty: :happy7: :laughing6:

questions, questions...

Posted: Sat May 21, 2005 12:10 pm
by dragonflydrummer
Ragnar wrote:
However the Uncles of a child were expected to be "as Fathers", and the Aunties...
So basically the Nine Mothers reference might be to a -- possibly matriarchal, system of communal mothering? I have heard that Heimdallr is a very ancient God, from a time even before Odin came to power.

Stormy wrote:
yes, Christianity is a Pagan religion
How so? It seems contrary to so many pagan values...

:tongue7: :toothy10: :toothy8: :toothy10: :tongue7:

Posted: Sat May 21, 2005 12:26 pm
by Ragnar
I know the feeling!
My friend, Napoleon, and I have discust it for some minutes.
NOW here we go. I think I am answering the wrong mail..... OHHH MUMMMMY HELLLLLP!
O.K. Dragonflydrummer, (great name by the way), I think you may be right. I believe, in another page, I have said about how the Norse Gods developed. They did not start out perfect, and are not perfect now. Heimdallr is one of the origional gang, but is THE epitomy of growth and improvement. (Therefore we must, I think, re-estimate Heimdallr). To me this is the Mothers job. The Mother as teacher. We see this in the teaching of Seidr to the Ă„sir, Odinn, Thorr etc, by Freya. The wells of wisdom were either female controlled, or non-specific.
Perhaps Heimdallr is the spirit of the Mother, the nine Mothers being nine races? Tribes? I am thinking on my feet here, and MAYBE it should come under another topic heading? I think we have left the origional topic. I put the decission in the hands of the moderators. But PLEASE let me know.

Re: questions, questions...

Posted: Sat May 21, 2005 1:54 pm
by Stormy
dragonflydrummer wrote:Ragnar wrote:

Stormy wrote:
yes, Christianity is a Pagan religion
How so? It seems contrary to so many pagan values...

:tongue7: :toothy10: :toothy8: :toothy10: :tongue7:
Well... they ARE contrary to many Pagan values, but...
They, for all intents and purposes, worship the Virgin Mary (Goddess...) and the Saints in Roman Catholic churches - oh, they don't call it worship, of course, but in my book, if you pray to someone and ask for favors to be granted, it's worship ;) , no matter how you try to candy coat it to make it sound like it isn't.
They also worship idols, though, of course, they claim they don't - but if they don't then why are their statues of Jesus, Mary, the Saints? Why to they kiss their feet and leave "offerings" for them? Again, in my book, if you kiss a statue and leave it offerings, you are worshiping it as an earthly receptacle for the spirit of said deity to be called down into - aka an IDOL.
I could go on with other examples, but you get my point - they may claim to be against everything pagan and have many values that are contradictory to paganism, but they also have many values that are contradictory to Christianity, and many of the things they do are definitely flavored with paganism, hence, they are being hypocrites when they condemn us.

Stormy - who is thinking a bit clearer now that she has taken her meds :-D

a couple/three points to the contrary...

Posted: Sat May 21, 2005 5:22 pm
by dragonflydrummer
Stormy said: my book, if you kiss a statue and leave it offerings, you are worshiping it as an earthly receptacle for the spirit of said deity to be called down into - aka an IDOL.
I agree with you there Stormy, and that applies to the Catholics and the Orthodox, although Protestants seem a little more austere. I think there are pagan elements that Xtianity picked up along the way -- but I also think they differ enough in three areas to be at the core, non-pagan:

A) They are intolerant of diversity because their god is Right so anyone who thinks contrary is Wrong. Often this is so pronounced that various xtian sects are at odds with each other.

B) They officially deny and oppress of any Divine Feminine principle. Although the Marys are there as 'consolation prizes.'

C) They believe in an extreme break-up of the universe into pure Good & Evil instead of seeing Light and Dark aspects of any given deity. While there is some reflection of this in the Zoroastrian faith -- the monotheist version of it is unique-ly cuckoo.

I suppose another difference is the imperative to evangelize, but it is conceivable at least, that a pagan faith could opt to actively try and win over followers, and still be pagan.

Just my hit on it though... hex:

Posted: Sun May 22, 2005 12:23 am
by Ragnar
I can see your point Stormy. Allthough it grates the teeth to admit it.
I think the main difference is their atitude to other beliefs.
Because we have many Gods/esses, we find iteasy to accept other ideas, its almost pr-programmed. But if your priests tell you they are the supreme mouthpiece of their God, and there is only one God, then our very existance undermines their main grip on authority.
Also thier attitude to books. O.K. I love books, I have a couple of thousand, I look after them, but, hey, they are only paper at the end. I do not go around wanting to kill people because some cheap, no mark, magazine reports one of these was dropped down the john. This reliance on a matarial object is to me totaly UN-Pagan.

Posted: Sun May 22, 2005 12:26 pm
by Kystar
In response to both dragonflydrummer and Stormy:

They have absorbed so many Pagan concepts that they won't acknowledge...which puts the entire thing under the heading of "hypocrisy" in my book.

So the answer to the question is YES AND NO.

Yes, they have many elements of Paganism, but no, it's not a pagan religion because of the contradictions in their faith.

Posted: Sun May 22, 2005 2:26 pm
by Ragnar
One of the main problems I have had during this discussion is one of definition. What does it mean to be Pagan? We have no set of rules to put a label on to us in such a way. We have no book or catachism, our priests/esses are, I feel, guides in our journey, they are not there to lay down strict rules and regulations. As with the monothiests.
O.K. I call my self Norse Heathen. This does not, I feel, define me, it is merely a description of the visualisation I have of the natural powers and forces. Every one is different. Why am I not christian? I think some of you who were could answer that better than me. I think once you can answer these questions, then we have some idea as to whether another belief system fits in or not.

Posted: Sun May 22, 2005 9:32 pm
by scoia
I agree with Stormy's comments, although I find the most pagan elemts of christianity are usuallly the catholic elements. Possible because a lot of the paganish catholic practices came about in the early 11th- 13th centuries when the emphasis was on driving out pagan practices.

They took a lot of the popular common practices of paganism and 'converted' them into acceptable christian forms to win over the people and appease the church. Many many saints were taken from old deities. Brigitta= St Brigid for example.

And the 'cult' of the virgin mary started around then, the 13th / 14th century. The repressive attitudes towards sexuality were probably behind it. She embodied ideals of virginity, submission and unnatainable 'purity' that were, and are, useful as tools of blackmail and guilt to make women ashamed of their sexuality and submissive to the male sex.

Not that I'm cynical or anything.

the crux of the thing...?

Posted: Sun May 22, 2005 10:39 pm
by dragonflydrummer
Kystar said:
So the answer to the question is YES AND NO.

Yes, they have many elements of Paganism, but no, it's not a pagan religion because of the contradictions in their faith.
Because of this masking of the Xtian faith in Pagan 'trappings' -- isn't it a bit like the proverbial "Wolf in Sheep's Clothing" -- at least officially? While I am certain there must be devout xtians in the world who are neither hypocrites nor bent on control -- this does not appear to be typical of their leadership or their overall (Pauline) dogma.


Re: Is christianity in reality a pagan religion????

Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2005 5:29 am
by Andy
Rain ForestMoon wrote:Up to now I had accepted the general view that christianity is one of the "abrahamic" religions. But of late I have come to a different view.

Christianity claims that Jesus was the Son of God, born of a virgin.

Anyone who has studied what the God of Abraham was like would agree that having a child by a virgin would be a most un-characteristic thing to do.
The prophet Mohammed is reported to have said: God (presumably the god of abraham) does not beget children.....

However, Gods having children (especially with virgin mothers [well, they generally were virgins to begin with] seems to have been the fashionable thing with Gods of antiquity (just look at the Greek or Roman pantheon....).

So where does this leave christianity? Are they all pagans after all? Or is the whole of christianity just a bit of a misunderstanding? or a fabrication?

Any thoughts on the matter?

Christianity is def not Pagan, I could list the differences but we'd be here all day, a few examples though are that we dont have a Goddess, we dont believe in any other Gods other that God/Jesus, we dont have alters in our homes, we dont say spells to heal etc.

"So where does this leave christianity? Are they all pagans after all? Or is the whole of christianity just a bit of a misunderstanding? or a fabrication?"

Great to see you have respect for christianity, im sure if I said the same about Paganism I would be told I was offending someone!


Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2005 7:31 am
by Kystar
However, 90% of the various holidays and traditions were taken from Pagan feasts and traditions to foist the religion off on the masses in the Middle Ages. (Mainly speaking of Catholicism, however, others took from that, so there you go.)

Saints' Medals, blessing of the food at feast time, ikons, statuarys, prayer shrines, sacred wells, blessing plaques for the home, holiday traditions are all taken pretty close to directly from pagan roots but have many people I've met of the Xtian faith INSISTING that they were never associated with pagans. The balanced trinity that some churches have (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) is another variety of the pagan roots of Europe.

A good book to read that gives a bit of background for the different Feasts that have Xtian echos is Wheel of the Year, Living the Magical Life By Pauline Campanelli, illustrated by Dan Campanelli. This book lists many of the traditions and the sources of the traditions in addition to having suggestions for the pagans to practice.

Another thing is the concept of a god who died and was resurrected...Jesus isn't the only one to deal with that...many of the Old Gods died and descended into the underworld, only to be reborn the next season. I don't know them all, but there are gods from every faith that have that theme. Greek, Norse, Egyptian, Celtic, Gaelic. They all died for a reason (not always a GOOD One, though), and return to continue life's cycle.

Research goes both ways, in that learning the roots of many things the various churches advocate and support might help you see our point.
Mainly, the Catholic church is the one most guilty of taking Pagan themes and insisting they're original...but many different churches were born from the Catholic one, so a lot has carried over.