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Posted: Fri May 13, 2005 3:03 pm
by Rain ForestMoon
dragonflydrummer wrote:Gender just seems to be a very powerful inherent feature in the Goddess/Gods of virtually all traditions. Prob'ly because there are real inherent differences in gender, but also 'cause sex is so important a preoccupation for all us little monkeys here below...
Maybe the very powerful reason for that is that in our human mind it then makes them more like us, or us like them....

Blessings

the Divine Masquerade...

Posted: Sat May 14, 2005 8:16 am
by dragonflydrummer
Oh absolutely ! I have a hard time thinking that deities existed before human recognition of them. The forces -- both in Nature and in the internal human make-up existed first of course -- but it's the individual and cultural perception, recognition of, and interaction with the Goddesses & Gods that gives them their individual personalities. This tends to modify and re-define as the over-all mindset and make-up of the human community does.

I think...
:-x

Posted: Sat May 14, 2005 4:46 pm
by socialgreen
I know this is a rare appearance that I am making. I have read from Gerald Gardner who quoted Kalbalist that in ancient times certain priest did corrupt manuscripts to make them read that there was only one male god. It went on to say that the goddess was the Holy Spirit. That makes sense since only a female can conceive a child.

Posted: Sun May 15, 2005 12:33 pm
by Ragnar
Loki is a bit like that, as well as changing shape he changed sex to become the Mother of Sleipnir. I can not put my hand on the facts right now, but I think something happened, similar, with Fenris. But as you said about Aphrodite, I am not entirely sure if Loki can be said to be a deity.
But does "pure spirit" not cover both bases? Then it's just a matter of how you relate personaly to the diety. If you want one or the other, (or all) is then entirely a matter of mind.

divinity, gender, et. al.

Posted: Sun May 15, 2005 10:13 pm
by dragonflydrummer
Ragnar said:
But does "pure spirit" not cover both bases? Then it's just a matter of how you relate personaly to the diety. If you want one or the other, (or all) is then entirely a matter of mind.
I think that prob'ly is a bit closer to "reality". The Female and Male aspects of things tend to morph and merge into one another over time. This is the basis of the I Ching, and a lot of other Asian philosophy. Yet -- there is in terms of Human life something basic and unchanging about the Mother -- that seems to come earlier, and is a priori to other deities and spirits.
:cyclopsani:

Faith systems that don't include this foundational position of the Mother force seem very unbalanced to me...

Posted: Sun May 15, 2005 10:56 pm
by Ragnar
Aye, the Norse have Audhumla, the cow of the cosmos, whos milk fed Buri and bor, the prototype Gods.
But where does the Mary figure of the christians fit into this? I know the catholics treat her as almost a deity, plus, to them, the Jesus charachter is"God". I know it's not quite the same as the Mother in paganism, but it does seem an attempt for at least parts of the church to balance things out.

Posted: Mon May 16, 2005 1:50 am
by Rain ForestMoon
Ragnar wrote:But where does the Mary figure of the christians fit into this? I know the catholics treat her as almost a deity, plus, to them, the Jesus charachter is"God". I know it's not quite the same as the Mother in paganism, but it does seem an attempt for at least parts of the church to balance things out.
Some of the other contributors to this topic have managed to convince me that christianity is not just another pagan religion.

However your words (plus what about the veneration of saints) have reminded my of my long-held view that catholic church and the orthodox churches are is in many ways the most pagan-like of the christian churches.


On this subject I have just become aware that many people, when talking about christianity seem to talk about catholics and protestants, but very often the existence of a good number of orthodox churches is often overlooked. I wonder why that is?

Blessings

Posted: Mon May 16, 2005 3:36 am
by Ragnar
I think that the main difference is, that we, as pagans, do not enforce our paticular belief on others. I do not need to remind any one on this site of the "witch trials", in Europe, and a bit later at Salem.
The Russian orthodox is beutiful to see. I was there once at the Russian Orth. at Edinburgh uni for a "christmas" celebration. It deffinately has something. I was also at a medeaval event here in Berlin. It took place around a lake in November. just as it got dark the monks and priests came around with their drums and chanting. The lake was dark, but a mist was rising from it. My Wife and I were sitting in the tent of the "quack doktor", we had our mead, our conversation, the smell of the incence. All around was silent.- Then came the "church". If any of you have ever heard "Blackmores night", or "In extremo", their quiet but rising chants with drums and ancientbagpipes, then you will have some idea as to the atmosphere.
I do not have too much against christian tradition, just the "polotics".

power corrupts...

Posted: Mon May 16, 2005 5:08 pm
by dragonflydrummer
Ragnar asked:
But where does the Mary figure of the christians fit into this?
Well I think little Mary is a vestige of the Divine Mother, but somehow it didn't fit with the program to have Her be Divine anymore. It was nice of them to let Jesus have a mother though. I'll give you that. They could have just had Jehovah do an 'instant savior'. I'm thinking that was the intention, but people wouldn't buy it.

Any worship of Mary as Divine was and is just sensible -- but politics rarely are... :lol:

Posted: Mon May 16, 2005 10:58 pm
by Ragnar
I can imagine the advertising campaign;
"Doe's instant dried saviour, just add boiling water stir, wait five minutes, suspend disbelief for life... AND HEY PRESTO, your very own, miracle working, saviour!
(with FREE instruction manual (bible))
As to people "buying things, They bought the "virgin" story. May be the science lessons were not what they are today. Allthough with these "fundies" getting into schools more and more, you never can tell.

Inquiring minds want to know...

Posted: Wed May 18, 2005 10:36 pm
by dragonflydrummer
Yeah -- what's up with that Virgin Birth thing? And why would anyone care if she was a virgin or not? I guess that was a big issue when men wanted to completely control women's reproductive rights.
Not like now...:joker:

Along those lines -- something I could never figure out was how could Heimdallr have had nine mothers? How would that work?
:smurfin: :smurfin: :smurfin: :smurfin: :smurfin: :brilsmurf: :smurfin: :smurfin: :smurfin: :smurfin:

Posted: Thu May 19, 2005 2:14 am
by Ragnar
With great difficulty.
I have met pleanty of people who have a possible selection of nine Fathers. Christains do not have a birth certificate, they have a multiple choice test form. They even admit to a choice of three themselves.

All in the family...

Posted: Fri May 20, 2005 6:56 am
by dragonflydrummer
:-x There are some rather challenging birth stories among the various faiths though. One of my favorite is Athena in the Greek pagan faith. Her father Zeus consumes his first consort Maia, much like his father Chronos consumed Zeus's brothers . Anyway -- he consumes Maia who is Wisdom -- Thus mystically fusing Wisdom & Authority in one great big Yin/Yang and from Zeus's head is sprung (fully clad in battle gear) the marvelous Athena.
:blob4:
Damn, I love this stuff!

Posted: Fri May 20, 2005 9:13 am
by Ragnar
Seems to be a lot of canabilism around in the Greek!
In Norse and Celtic the gaining of wisdom tends to involve mead more.
But as to strang births; Heimdallr, of course, but something also went on similar with Tyr, the trouble is the remaining myth is only fragmentary. Loki had some wierd experiences, if you will pardon the pun, He turned into a female to Mother Sleipnir*, he was also the Mother of Fenris and Hel. Njord had Frey and freya by his Sister Nanna... na, the list goes on. I wonder why the ancients felt a need for all these bits of strangeness (to modern eyes)?
*Eight legs, runs around the world web and I had a long drawn out argument with my Proffessors who said Sleipnir was a horse? PLEASE!
Also, am I the only one that sees Heimdallr as a dolphin? Born of the waves and living at the interface between sea and sky, as does his other symbol, the rainbow. Also known for their wisdom, and their protection and guidance of sailors.

Posted: Fri May 20, 2005 12:49 pm
by dragonflydrummer
Ragnar asked:
Also, am I the only one that sees Heimdallr as a dolphin? Born of the waves and living at the interface between sea and sky, as does his other symbol, the rainbow.
He certainly is one of the most intriguing and beautiful deities I know of ! I've never thought of Him as a Dolphin before -- just never occurred to me. His incredible hearing and vision make Him bird-like in some ways as well. Like a Trumpeter Swan or something akin to that. Let me wrap my mind around the Dolphin image for a while. It's a powerful incarnation for Him.
:albino: