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Post by lucas » Mon Aug 20, 2007 7:43 am

This was published in the Independent/UK yesterday. Another wordy quote-sorry 'bout that.
Americans are flocking to a hi-tech Creation Museum where man and dinosaurs frolick happily together
Published: 19 August 2007

Dinosaurs of all kinds abound here, from the stegosaurus silhouettes rearing atop the iron gates as you first reach the parking lot to the numerous and impressively convincing animatronic pterosaurs wagging their giant tails and chewing plastic cud inside. At America's newest public museum dedicated to exploring the origins of man and our planet, dinos are big box office, especially with kids.


Yet, there is something askew about the exhibits here and it doesn't take long to see. It's not just the "Thou shalt not touch" signs or the biblically named Noah's Café, offering respite for lunch. How about a stroll down the Trail of Life, first stop, the Garden of Eden with faux cypress trees and gurgling streams? Look, there are Adam and Eve taking a dip, and not far away another dinosaur lurks, and a lion too.

It's not just the presence of the naked pair, with niftily placed lily pads to cover their naughty bits, that seems barmy. Wouldn't they have been gobbled up by now, before they had the chance to do any eating themselves, say of the forbidden fruit? What were the designers of this place thinking?
Source - http://news.independent.co.uk/world/ame ... 872252.ece
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Post by Dark Waters » Mon Aug 20, 2007 8:25 am

My question for those that claim the Earth is less than 6,000 years old has always been, "What about the Chinese?" There is evidence of Chinese written language that is at least that old, if not more. So when you add in the time it actually takes to go from spoken words to creating a standard written language - we are looking at almost 7,000 years at least. So how could there be written language BEFORE the Earth was created?
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Post by Willow » Mon Aug 20, 2007 6:23 pm

Good question.

But I have found that Fundies often try to find ways to "discredit" archeaological dating techniques.
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Post by Windwalker » Mon Aug 20, 2007 11:07 pm

D'you know, when I was in 7th form there were people in my biology class who actually, seriously, believed that humans and dinosaurs co-existed.

When I was 6 I was a HUGE dino-geek, so from early childhood I knew damn well that dinosaurs died out about 60 million years before the early humans turned up. The concept that they had gone 17 years without knowing this just blew my mind. Seriously. I still haven't gotten over it.
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Post by Ragnar » Mon Aug 20, 2007 11:32 pm

Dark Waters wrote:My question for those that claim the Earth is less than 6,000 years old has always been, "What about the Chinese?"
I put this question to the Joeys. I also pointed out carbon dating.

Their answer was "well the scientists are wrong"

Aha, how can one POSSIBLY fault such logic? :-?

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Post by Windwalker » Tue Aug 21, 2007 2:21 am

"God puts fossils there to test our faith!"
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Post by Ragnar » Tue Aug 21, 2007 2:47 am

Aha. Been there, done it.

Did YOU get the T-shirt, as well? :-D

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Post by Dark Waters » Tue Aug 21, 2007 5:36 am

Had one Fundie try to tell me how wrong Darwin was. He said that Evolutionism says everything came from nothing and that humans are descended from monkeys. For his evidence he cited that we don't have a COMPLETE fossil record, that we can't find the "missing link" hybrid between monkeys and men, and there was a fossil of a dog-like creature with a baby dinosaur in it's stomach - and he was "always told how there were no mammals around when there were dinosaurs.

I just wanted to give him a slap upside the head because neither are statements that are true about evolutionism, and he has completely misunderstood what "evidence" he has. First, no one says man came from modern great apes. What the theory states is that both have a common ancestor far back in history, much like a Clydesdale and a Shetland Pony, or a rotweiller and a chihuahua, have a common ancestor. There won't be a link between Modern apes and men because though related they didn't come from each other.

It takes very special conditions to create fossils, which is why there is not a complete record. I always turn it around on them and say we don't have a complete record to back up their version either.

Ands no one said there were no mammals around during the times of the dinosaurs, only no humans or human analogs. There were plenty of lower ammals around and they fed on what they could.

finally they it is not evolution that said everything came from nothing - we save that for the fundies - "In the beginning all was without form and VOID" meaning nothing there.
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Post by Crazy Healer Lady » Tue Aug 21, 2007 6:09 am

Carbon dating is a controversial subject. There ARE faults to it. Bill Nye even threw a small piece of old wood that he had just chopped up into the microwave and sent it to a scientist to be carbon dated. It turned up I think 3 million years old.

Just playing devil's advocate here :D

I do not, in any way, believe that dinosaurs walked when humans did! But carbon dating still needs to be perfected. The earth is, by no means, 6,000 years old. I wonder even if time existed as it does to us now back then, and carbon dating I believe does not leave room for that.
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Post by Ragnar » Wed Aug 22, 2007 12:22 am

Crazy Healer Lady wrote: I do not, in any way, believe that dinosaurs walked when humans did!
Depends how you see crocodiles, and things like the komono (sp?) lizards.

Even birds, like the ostrich and emu.

Cockoroaches have never changed.

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Post by Windwalker » Wed Aug 22, 2007 1:54 am

Woo! Dino-rant! :-D

Keep in mind that this is being dredged up from about 14 years ago...

There's a particular difference between "dinosaurs" and "lizards". Something to do with the pelvis and the legs, I think. For this reason, Tuatara are not considered anything like a dinosaur, despite having survived mostly unchanged from dinosaur times. Lizards have legs that go out to the side and then down, while dinosaurs' legs mostly go straight down. Imagine a triceratops and a gecko, and compare their legs. Flying reptiles and swimming reptiles are not considered "dinosaurs". (This was an issue that caused me to rant as a child. Seriously. And gods help you if you said "brontosaurus" instead of "apatosaurus".)

Komodo is the lizard you're thinking of, Ragnar, and I love them :-D I've always wanted one as a pet but it would probably eat me.

Cockroaches are naaaasty. Ugh.
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Post by Ragnar » Wed Aug 22, 2007 2:13 am

Windwalker wrote: There's a particular difference between "dinosaurs" and "lizards". Something to do with the pelvis and the legs, I think.
Is that not a similar difference between us and neanderthal man though?

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Post by Crazy Healer Lady » Wed Aug 22, 2007 5:16 am

Depends how you see crocodiles, and things like the komono (sp?) lizards.
I was going to mention that, actually, lol. It amazes me how creatures could have lived so long and gone unchanged. They must have got it right the first time, having survived so much change, or have lived far longer than we thought to have room to evolve into such beings. Looking at the spider here beside me, I am just mesmerized at how perfect they are, susceptible to really only one disease, and us, so fragile. Then again, if you drop them, they will break, even the ones that jump tree limb to tree limb, so maybe not so perfect.

And crocodiles!! They can have deep open wounds and swim around in sesspools (sp?) and still heal quickly with no infection! Last I heard they were trying to isolate what caused this in their blood and use it on humans.
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Post by Willow » Wed Aug 22, 2007 3:52 pm

Oddly enough, the Ontario bird, the loon, has changed very little over the millions of years. It is one of the most ancient birds in the world.

I gave up on the evolution debate long ago.
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Post by Windwalker » Wed Aug 22, 2007 5:50 pm

Ragnar wrote: Is that not a similar difference between us and neanderthal man though?
No. We're of the same genus. We's family with our Homo neanderthalensis bretheren. They could stand upright anyways. They were champions, neanderthalensis, big brains and everything! They had heavy jaws, they were stockier, their limbs were shorter, and they had bigger facial features but really we were rather alike.

I think a better mammal analogy would be like comparing placental, marsupial, and monotremial mammals. Significant difference. Of course, as I said, I'm dredging this up from yeeeears ago. You'd probably want to ask a paeleontologist for a proper definition of "dinosaur", although you'd have to be careful as chances are they'd never shut up. ;)

Crocs kick ass. (They're way cooler than alligators.) Sharks, too, haven't changed too much. They can take almost anything you throw at them. Some critters, though, they've stayed one way for ages and it's been fine, but suddenly you come along with dogs and cats and ferrets and rats and suddenly they're all dead. Most unfortunate.

If you could wish back one extinct animal, what would it be? It's a hard choice, but I think I'd go with the Haast eagle. So cool. (Small children will just have to keep their eyes skyward.)
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