Women - Back to the hearth you birthgiving machines?!

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fatale
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Women - Back to the hearth you birthgiving machines?!

Post by fatale » Tue Jan 23, 2007 11:11 am

Thanks to Katsu I spend most of my free time at this “FSTDT” website. It has the strange attraction of a traffic accident. I’m scared and disgusted, but I can not stop reading!

Anyway! What I read there clearly showed the fear and helplessness “Fundie Men” feel when faced with modern women. Some of the statements and comments just made me feel like I live 200 years ago.
Now, what I was wondering about – do Pagan men (or moderate religious men) not have this fears, are they just hiding it better? Are they more open minded about the changing role women have in society today?
Where do these old-fashioned guys find a wife? Are some women really that “behind” that they believe the husband has the right to beat them or to demand sex whenever he feels like?
How do these fears develop and sustain? And do you think I’m right when I say the younger once are getting worse than their elders?

I understand that the situation can be confusing for men raised in old-fashioned households, with outdated values. It even can be complicated for men who are not raised that way to work for a female boss, mothers having careers and girls preferring higher education over marriage, but like everything else in this universe humans and human relationships develop.
I’m by no means a feminist but I want to be respected and treated well – and seeing these young people condoning rape and domestic abuse is scary-especially when they do it in the name of a loving and forgiving god!
[I also check a hunting messageboard (no, I'm not a hunter) where people tend to be very conservative. There's always been a somewhat anti-women stand in the conservative community, but it seems to get worse. ]

I better stop here - it's quite a rant already! :eek:

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Post by Willow » Tue Jan 23, 2007 1:48 pm

Hey Fatale...feminist isn't a dirty word, based on everything you said. You are. People just have this (false) image of feminsts as man hating lesbians, something that has unfortunately been perpetuated mainly by the Christian right. There are a variety of feminisms. I mean Virginia Woolf rejected the term, but now we tend to consider her an icon. The wikipedia article on feminism isnt bad. Some Great authors:

Simone de Beaviour
Mary Woolsencraft
Gloria Steinman
Vivian Gornick
Betty Friedan

Whether or not it is men's fear, people in power tend to defend their power. And change is difficult. What is difficult about feminism is it does not advocate a black and white "men and women should be equal" world view. Intead, it is similar to post modernity in that it asks people the completely re-think the structures that hold our very society together such as democracy (what if it isn't the best way to run a company), economics (do we really need to balance the environment and economics or can we just assume that the health of one is dependent on the health of the other) and so on. Honestly, feminist theory scares me sometimes because it offers the option that everything I know, may not be "the best" way or even self evident (what would that mean for the constitution?).

Anyway, if there is interest I can dig up a description of the various types of feminism and its hisotry and post it some day when I have time. But this is a good questions Fatale, I look forward to hearing other peoples answers.
Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
Dr. Seuss (1904 - 1991)

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Post by fatale » Wed Jan 24, 2007 11:46 am

Hey Fatale...feminist isn't a dirty word, based on everything you said. You are. People just have this (false) image of feminsts as man hating lesbians
I think you are right – I reject the term Feminist because of the images of shorthair women in wife beaters and combat boots. :lol:
Whether or not it is men's fear, people in power tend to defend their power
I totally agree with this statement. Nobody wants to give up what’s traditionally theirs.
What is difficult about feminism is it does not advocate a black and white "men and women should be equal" world view. Intead, it is similar to post modernity in that it asks people the completely re-think the structures that hold our very society together
Absolutely! I wasn’t sure how to word it. My idea is not that men and women are equal, because they are not, but that both sides should respect the other and use and learn form the differences that we experience.
It is not necessary to be equal in everything to be treated fairly. Why is it still, that when a woman gets promoted, she “slept her way up”. I also hate the fact that there are still job adds out there ending with “women and other minorities are encouraged to apply” WTF!

However, I’m ways off from where I actually started. How do “Non Fundie Men” deal with the current changes? Do you experience different (better) treatment form pagan men, then from men of other faith?

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Re: Women - Back to the hearth you birthgiving machines?!

Post by Ragnar » Wed Jan 24, 2007 3:13 pm

fatale wrote: Are they more open minded about the changing role women have in society today?
Hmm. NO!

Because with my family/tradition, the Women and men have allways been equal.

So "open" or "close" minded does not come into it.

In fact we find the whole discussion rather quaint. :lol:

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Post by Crazy Healer Lady » Wed Jan 24, 2007 4:55 pm

My ex was very equal, but he'd long had his power beaten out of him by his mom. He was just happy if the girl he was with was nice to him. But that was ages ago.

My SO now definately has issues sometimes. His exposure to women with power has always been feminazis who immasculate their men, and his exposure to everyone else has been a typical happy Christian setting. Mom may sometimes work, but she's the mom. Dad's the boss.

Because I have come from a family where - no matter what my dad thinks - my mom is the boss, we butted heads at first, until we came to a happy medium and stopped trying to look out for ways our power is trying to be taken from us, and just looked at eachother as equal human beings. (I even had a :censored: bible verse, "A woman must be submissive to her husband" quoted to me before this!!!!)

It is a long time later, and there is no trace of these former thoughts in him, which is great. I think it really was a case of the argument I am about to support.

I don't think all men want their wives as subordinant. I think, as it has already been proposed, that there is more a fear of their personal power being taken away than anything. If one is confident in themselves, they realize that nothing can take their power away. No one ever does anything TO you. You merely let them, or you don't. (Uh, this is exempting cases of abuse.)

I cannot claim to be an expert on these issues, but I think we are coming into a new age. Men in my generation, unless raised in traditional settings, I have found to be relative equalists. There is coming also an imbalance where men are the subordinant, and that is not acceptable either.

Okay right I am rambling.
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The purpose of a relationship is not to have another who might complete you, but to have another with whom you might share your completeness. -CWG

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Post by Jescissa » Thu Jan 25, 2007 12:57 am

Oooh, nice topic Fatale! I class myself as a feminist...but I'm definitely not a feminazi :lol: I don't hate men and I don't swan around like I'm above them. If you want to know a bit more about the history of feminism (and why it has such a bad press) there's a book called "Feminism: A Very Short Introduction" by Margaret Walters from Oxford University Press.

I think there is a real fear amongst conservative groups that "new women" can emasculate men beyond repair with their talk of equality in all things. Some men are shocked by the way some women are offended when they hold the door open for them or hold out a chair for them at restaurants (to those kinds of women I say; let the guy do it if he wants to, it's chivalrous and shows he respects you), whilst other men are shocked that women can rise to positions of power these days (Margaret T******r was Prime Minister of Britain in the 1980s, Betty Boothroyd was Speaker of the House of Commons in Britain in the 1990s, Condoleezza Rice is Secretary of State in the US and Nanci Pelosi is Speaker of the House of Representatives in the US)

I believe that the problem between men/women in the workplace stems from pregnancies. In Britain (I don't know if it's any different around the world) men get paid more than women for the same job...yet a woman capable of having children could be off work for up to 12 months having the child. An employer would get more work out of a man (or post-menopausal woman) than they would a young woman with fertile years before her, so the wages are skewed to reflect that even if the woman has no intention of having children ever. Aside from reproductive differences, men and women are equal and are capable of the same output in the workplace.

I've come across a few young men who feel women should be at home with the children, wave off the husband when he leaves for work in the morning and put tea on the table when the husband comes home in the evening, thankfully in my experience those people are few. However, the cost of living here has soared so it generally means both halves of the couple have to work to afford to survive (never mind buying a house, house prices over here are ridiculous).
"If you trust in yourself and believe in your dreams and follow your star...you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy. Goodbye." - Miss Tick, Terry Pratchett's Wee Free Men

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Post by Ragnar » Thu Jan 25, 2007 6:14 am

Jessica, I felt the urgent need to edit your post. Using Filthy words, even if they ARE ex Prime ministers is not nice. :-D

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Post by Willow » Thu Jan 25, 2007 7:07 am

LOL...not a t******r fan are we?
Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
Dr. Seuss (1904 - 1991)

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Post by Ragnar » Thu Jan 25, 2007 7:34 am

You guessed! #-o

Allthough, from what is happening in U.K with "OOOHHH! please do that to me again George" Blair. and his "Government", then I get to Feel begrudgingly nostalgic for the T******r years.

It's all relative. And speaking relatively, U.K is worse off now that it EVER was.

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Post by Willow » Thu Jan 25, 2007 10:47 am

LOL, I resister the urge to type her name repeatedly just to see if you would go back and fix it.

Indira Gandhi si someone else we forgot, she was no picnic. neat that she was elected, but the golden temple crisis showed her true colours.
Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
Dr. Seuss (1904 - 1991)

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Post by Jescissa » Thu Jan 25, 2007 11:09 am

Ragnar wrote:Using Filthy words, even if they ARE ex Prime ministers is not nice.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I was born in 1985, I don't even remember the T******r years - I just thought she'd be a good example of a woman in power! :lol:

Speaking of women in power, I forgot to add Golda Meir. None of these female leaders have been perfect...but if they were they wouldn't be human (and no male leader has got it right every time either)
"If you trust in yourself and believe in your dreams and follow your star...you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy. Goodbye." - Miss Tick, Terry Pratchett's Wee Free Men

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Post by Ragnar » Thu Jan 25, 2007 2:00 pm

Willow wrote:LOL, I resister the urge to type her name repeatedly just to see if you would go back and fix it.
No. Joke over now. I will spell it that way. But I will give the rest of you disspensation to use THAT foul word. :lol:

Well I was born 1960. So I was trying to find my first job, that was not with my Grandfather, in U.K between 1978 and...well whenever.

So the T cow got her dictator-ship in 1979!

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Post by Crazy Healer Lady » Thu Jan 25, 2007 5:06 pm

Ragnar!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: You made me nearly fall off my chair!!!
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The purpose of a relationship is not to have another who might complete you, but to have another with whom you might share your completeness. -CWG

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Post by fatale » Fri Jan 26, 2007 7:47 am

Jescissa wrote: However, the cost of living here has soared so it generally means both halves of the couple have to work to afford to survive (never mind buying a house, house prices over here are ridiculous).
That in a way is a great development for women - but, if both partners are out in the work place, do they share the household work load too?

I grew up in East Germany, a socialist county where women worked, children were taken care of in day cares, which were provided by the government. Still, the majority of house work - even after 40 years of "equality" was done by women. The kids got sick - the mother stayed home. Women even got an official "household day" every month, to take care of laundry and cleaning! While I wouldn't mind getting an extra day off, I find it wrong giving the so called household day just to the women!
Mostly here (USA and from my past experience in Germany) the pay for men and women is fairly equal.
It also is not so much the "industrial" equality I wonder about, but the mind set of men generally.
I found true equality in my marriage. My husband does just as much housework as I. He stays home when the children are sick just as often as I. He is very supportive of me working on a career. (He hopes he can be a stay at home dad in a few years and spend his days playing golf. :lol: ) He still holds doors for me and fills my gas tank – I hate driving around at the gas station. :o I do most of the cooking and laundry. I also do the majority of baby care. My husband does “school stuff”, like going to parent teacher meetings.
We never planned any of this. Things just naturally fell into place.
Now, I’m sure there are many relationships like this out there, but I am also sure, that there are families where things do not work that way, where still both partners work and the woman comes home and get busy with her second job at home.
My husband is “agnostic” and not biased by religious theories. I believe that’s part of why he respects me more than a former partner (strictly catholic). Another part of how you treat people of course comes from the way you were raised and what you witness at home.

My father in law absolutely loathes Nancy Pelosi, he thinks she's arrogant and cold. Partly because he's republican, but also because she's a woman. I find her very likable. Sure, she is pround of what she achieved, but she has every right to be. Her acceptance speech moved me deeply, she beautifully spoke of all the brave women from the past - and I loved the fact that her grandchildren where present.

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Post by Jescissa » Fri Jan 26, 2007 9:27 am

Fatale wrote:My father in law absolutely loathes Nancy Pelosi, he thinks she's arrogant and cold. Partly because he's republican, but also because she's a woman.
That's sad, but it's not a rare thing. It seems like a guy in power is an accepted thing because power = masculinity, but when a woman is in power she is perceived to be cold and hard because OMG it's like so impossible for a woman to be warm and caring and a good mother and grandmother *and* be a powerful political figure as well!

In Britain it's generally accepted that both partners work...but the female (if there is a female, here's hoping that the equal rights legislation gets passed sometime soon :-D) comes home and does the ironing and cooks etc. There are some households that operate the other way around, but a lot of the women I know prefer to come home and do all the housework because husband 'doesn't get it right'. I don't know whether that's a British thing or just a Welsh thing, :lol: When I stay with my boyfriend we have an arrangement that we just fell into - I do all the cooking and he does all the washing up! I hate washing up and he has no idea how to cook things so they all are ready at the same time, so it's a great trade. As for general keeping the place tidy stuff, we're both responsible for that, although we're not neat freaks, we're pretty easy going about what constitutes mess and what is tidy!

"Household Day" sounds good, but definitely both men and women should have it, although perhaps on different days so it wouldn't be an excuse for couples to skive off work!
"If you trust in yourself and believe in your dreams and follow your star...you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy. Goodbye." - Miss Tick, Terry Pratchett's Wee Free Men

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