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Ragnar
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Post by Ragnar » Fri Apr 20, 2007 12:40 am

0
Trans-Atlantic imports by region
1450-1900
Region Number of slaves
accounted for %

Brazil 4,000,000 35.4
Spanish Empire 2,500,000 22.1
British West Indies 2,000,000 17.7
French West Indies 1,600,00 14.1
British North America and United States 500,000 4.4
Dutch West Indies 500,000 4.4
Danish West Indies 28,000 0.2
Europe (and Islands) 200,000 1.8

Total 11,328,000 100.0

Data derived from table II as presented in:
The Slave Trade
by Hugh Thomas
Simon and Schuster, 1997,
ISBN 0-68481063-8

Thought that may help.

Liverpool set up a "slave museum" in Albert/Salthouse dock, in....you guessed it Liverpool.

They were MOST perturbed to find that no slaves were actualy LANDED at Liverpool. Allthough many of the Liverpool companies, Bibby line, Harrison Line, Blue Funnel, etc made their fortunes from the shipment of either slaves from Africa to the "new world" OR from shipping the "rewards" from the "new world" to U.K. (Cotton, Sugar, rum cake, etc.)

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Post by Jescissa » Fri Apr 20, 2007 1:08 am

Yup, and the famous Penny Lane the Beatles sang about was named after James Penny who made his fortune from the slave trade.

Thanks Ragnar, the stats are quite astonishing!
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Post by Kitsune » Fri Apr 20, 2007 4:25 pm

I firmly believe that if you don't want the name being used to name you, then you shouldn't be using it yourself. In my Dungeon & Dragon games, I tend to play Slutty characters (hey, what can I say, I have a thing for attractive powerful women, who know how to use their beauty properly), but when I looked at a friend and she said that based on the characters I played I must be a slut, I was horrified and pissed off. I don't call anybody a name I don't feel comfortable being called in any situation.

I just don't think it's nessesary. Come up with a different name. You can't be that insulted if you're willing to have somebody else call you it. I suppose the japanese do a similar thing, where only family and friends can call you by your first name, and everybody else calls you by your family name, but, it's getting too confusing to know who to call what and who to not piss off.

Mind you, I also believe that Tolerance is a dirty word... We "tolerate" what we don't like and are irritated by, when we Accept somebody's differences, that's when true change can occur.
Trying to create a world, even in words, is good occupational therapy for lunatics who think they're God, and an excellent argument for Polytheism. -S.M. Stirling

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Post by Jescissa » Sat Apr 21, 2007 3:31 am

I think it's your right to define what you want certain people to call you, but that's just me. If a group of black friends want to call each other N, that's their right. They're taking a word that was once used to put their race down, and transforming it into a name of solidarity, I don't see a problem with that. And there's no real reason why a white person should use N in this day and age, there are plenty of other words out there to use!

I think what the N word stands for, is the last barrier between black culture and white culture. We've seen a huge rise in popular music that has come from a black underground background, but white singers sing it and make it mainstream. Black fashion and hairstyles from Africa and the Caribbean have been taken on by whites and made mainstream (Faye Tozer from pop group Steps had bleach-blonde dreadlocks and Christina Aguilera once had a huge bleach-blonde afro). N will never be mainstream again and I think it's probably the last bastion of blackness that white people can't steal.

I think LARP and D&D is slightly different. You are taking on a character. No one should judge you based on the characters you play, that is pretty incredible that your friend should make a judgement like that, especially these days when we know all about the creative process and one doesn't have to be a slut in real life to know how to play a slut in fantasyland!

I have a personal name, named by the Gods. It is very different from my name given by my parents, and very different from the nickname I have among my friends. The only people call me this personal name are the Gods themselves. The only people who give me my full given title are my parents, my friends are the only people who call me by certain nicknames. You guys are the only people who call me Jescissa :-D We have names and references for many different situations in life and I see N as just another name/reference that certain people choose to use with each other. Just as it would be violating to hear someone who isn't a God call me by my personal name, I imagine it's quite violating to hear someone who isn't your friend call you N.
"If you trust in yourself and believe in your dreams and follow your star...you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy. Goodbye." - Miss Tick, Terry Pratchett's Wee Free Men

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Post by morgana » Sat Apr 21, 2007 5:52 am

Well obviously they are ALLOWED to call each other what they want, but do I believe it's a healthy thing to use a word which is rooted in so much hate on people you supposedly call friends? No. I think this word is part of what keeps racism alive and well (at least here in the states) on BOTH sides. Also, I believe that it's a show of self-hatred of a sort. They call themselves and each other N, then turn around and call their women h**s and b****s, THEN they date white women, which while I firmly believe that there is NOTHING wrong with interracial dating (considering that I've done it and would likely do it again), the combination of that with the other things I've listed really makes you think.

I firmly believe that words have power, or energy to them. And like all things with energy, it can be positive or negative, or some mixture of the two. N is one of those truly negative words to me. I could say the same about f****t (the bad word used most often to describe gay men), or c**t (one of the derrogatory words used for women). I absolutely refuse to use any of these words, and for good reason. My vocabulary is full of other words to choose from that are far less damaging.

Also, I have to side with Kitsune in her argument that you teach people what it is acceptable to call you. For me, if someone who was my friend, regardless if they were male or female, came up to me and called me a c**t, even if they said it in a friendly way, I'd probably deck them. For me, this word is unacceptable, and NOBODY will call me that and get away with it. In my opinion, N should be the same for black people. I understand the "reclaiming" it argument, but it has led me to question if reclaiming a negative word is a good thing. Because they are "reclaiming" the word, they allow themselves to be called this word, and labelled by it. I personally believe that this word still has a negative impact on the people who let themselves be labelled as N, regardless of whether the person calling them that is black or white.

As for that word being the last barrier between black culture and white culture, I have to disagree. Do famous white people occasionally adopt traditionally black fashion, music and hairstyles? Yes. Do I believe that this is taking black culture away from black people? No. Cultures that live together ARE going to intermingle. It's actually a good and healthy thing. It shows not only acceptance, but appreciation for the differences that the other culture has to offer. The black people still have their culture, and I dunno about over there, but here in the states, it is rare when a white rapper makes it big. Usually when they do, it doesn't last very long. Black rappers are still generally preffered over white ones.

But if all of a sudden, black people took more interest in, say...classical music, and all of a sudden they were going to orchestra concerts, and buying cds of classical music, and dressing more like white people, would you say that they were "stealing" white culture? Certainly not. At least I know I wouldn't. It's all just cultures intermingling, and taking ideas from each other. And when it comes down to it, do you REALLY think that the rappers and R&B singers mind the white kids buying their albums when it's putting money in their pockets?

I definitely think that black people can still have their culture without the word N being involved. After all, I've been trying to get in touch with my Scottish/Irish roots, but do I call myself (or let others call me) a drunk Irish person, or a sheep-loving Scot? No. There are bad stereotypes and nasty words for pretty much every culture in the world, but do they all get caught up in reclaiming said nasty words? No. As a result, these words are used a whole lot less frequently on average than N. This is just what I've observed from living in the states, perhaps it's different elsewhere, but this is what I've seen.

****End of Rant**** 8-)
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Post by SageWolf » Sat Apr 21, 2007 7:49 am

Well Said morgana, you actually said better what I was trying to say in the first place =D> =D> Thank you.
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Post by Willow » Sat Apr 21, 2007 1:00 pm

A couple intersting things.

There is a sociological theory that says the group in power (not being discriminated) tends to see the world as more equal than it really is.

The problem is not individuals being explicitly racist. Humans are programmed to enjoy being around family groups who resemble themseelves, its so we know who to care for and who is an enemy, our brain teaches us todfferentiate and it will take a long time to overcome.

Psychological studies have shown that even people who have NO explicitly racist attitudes, will still make racist assumptions. Two studies come to mind right away, first is a New york cab study, it takes black men longer than any other ethnic group in New york to get a cab? The second is a study where they showed a group of people two videos, one of a white child poking a another child with a pencil, and one of a black child poking the same other child with a pencil. When asked to explain the children's actions the majority of people caimed the white kid was just trying to get the attention, while the black child was bullying, regardless of where they scored on a test that measured their racism.

The problem is there is still systemic racism, that goes far beyond the slavery issue. I have aboriginal family who get it all the time. None of the kids my age were in residential schools, but they still feel it from their paresnts. Slavery unfortunately is not as old as we like to think it is, and segregation only just ended in the 1960s. Those prejudices will echo through hisotry for generations because they have concequences we can't understand. They shaped our parents thinking, who helped shape our thinking. And what is sad is I have heard my Aboriginal family use the N word....Sigh....

I am not saying that anyone here is wrong necessaily, just that the issue is much more nuanced than a sense of entitlement due to slavery.

As for names, white people don't like being called milk or cracker by black people, I think It wouldn't bother me if another white person said it too me. Hoever, I think it is up to blacks to decide how they want to use the N word. I defend my right to call myself pagan, even though it is derogatory from other sources.

As for name calling, I know many women who would rather be called he C-word than the B word.

Why? Well, when we are mad at men, we calll them body part names (I'll let you dig up your own), they may be rude, but at least they are parts of the HUMAN body. When we are mad at women, especially when women are mad at other women, we dehumanise them by calling them a female dog.

There is no equivalent of the B word for men, at least with the C word, we are still human, just a body part.

Anyway, those are my two sense, I know Ican't change anyone's mind, but there is a lot to think about here.
Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
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Post by Crazy Healer Lady » Sat Apr 21, 2007 3:06 pm

There is no equivalent of the B word for men, at least with the C word, we are still human, just a body part.
Pig

A**

I'm not in any way discounting your argument, but I wanted to counter this.

I, personally, would rather be called the B word than the C word, because defacing such a beautiful part of the human body into a derogatory verbal attack is more offensive to myself than dehumanizing me.
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Post by Jescissa » Sun Apr 22, 2007 2:57 am

Really interesting points thrown up here :-D I really like the way it is safe to put forward your opinion here and not be attacked for saying it. Everyone is so civil here, I love it!

Like I said, this is just my opinion, based on what little life research I have, not a wider study or anything like that.
Willow wrote:There is a sociological theory that says the group in power (not being discriminated) tends to see the world as more equal than it really is.
Yes, I think I did bring that up, but not in any kind of succinct way!
Willow wrote:As for names, white people don't like being called milk or cracker by black people, I think It wouldn't bother me if another white person said it too me. Hoever, I think it is up to blacks to decide how they want to use the N word. I defend my right to call myself pagan, even though it is derogatory from other sources.
Exactly. It's not up to anyone else to decide what words can and cannot be used by a group for themselves. Pagan is a reclaimed word. It comes from 'paganus' - country dweller - and then was an insult, then a heretical name and now has almost come full circle again, albeit with more religious overtones than the original use. Modern Pagans have the deep respect for nature that our ancestors the Paganus once had, the difference is that now Pagans don't have to be country dwellers.

We're discussing words and meaning in lectures right now, interestingly enough. Words are pretty arbitrary. Sounds are cobbled together to make a word, and then a human meaning is assigned to it. There is nothing in the word 'tree' that suggests an inherent 'treeness', it's just an arbitrary word invented to describe a plant with a woody stem and leafy top. The N word is derived from an earlier word that was purely descriptive, and has attached this negative meaning to it through certain socio-historical events...but in the beginning, it was just an arbitrary collection of sounds ascribed a meaning almost at random.
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Post by morgana » Sun Apr 22, 2007 6:30 am

CHL, I'm with you. I'd rather be called a B than a C any day. To me C is far more dehumanizing. It implies that you are ONLY that part of your body, and thereby good for only one thing, whereas B has come to mean an angry woman, or a woman that won't put up with any crap. A friend of mine once said something that struck really close to home for me, and I'm not gonna quote it exactly right, but it was something like, "Call me a B all you want, it doesn't make any difference to me. Cuz when it comes down to it, sometimes being a B is all a woman has left."

She said it much better than how I quoted it, but it really made me think when she said it, because of how she described being a B as having one last vestige of power left, one last bit of protection. That, in it's own right is sort of the essence of the meaning for B. A female dog who will protect and defend herself and her pups, who won't take crap from outsiders. Because this is the way I have begun to see this word, I no longer see it as an insult, but as a truth. If you hurt me or the ones I love, then I will absolutely show you my inner B. 8-)
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Post by Willow » Sun Apr 22, 2007 6:48 am

I have to say, I don't think Pig and the B word are on the same level, you can refute away because it isn't my idea, other people told me about it (I hope I wrote that, I just prefer to be called by my name, I got offended when my Jewish friend called me a goy). And I don't know men that often call each other pigs (not we can also type the entire owrd on this board, we can't do that with the B word) women unfortunately throw the B word at each other a lot, and not in a nice way.

But I have to say, if we are reclaiming the beauty of female body parts, does that mean we should be respecting the beauty of male body parts? Thereby eliminating those words from out vocab?

As for the A word, I tend to think of the body part, not the animal becasue the word hole is usually tacked onto the end, but then again, I don't interaty with donkeys often, all I know is that they are stubborn.
Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
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Post by Crazy Healer Lady » Sun Apr 22, 2007 9:06 am

Ha ha good point, Willow! I don't have to censor Pig. My argument was not meant to be strong, just there.

As for removing male body parts from our vocabulary? Well... That would be pretty hard, considering most men are NAMED after them. *ahem... Richard?* ;) I do wholeheartedly support giving respect to men and their bodies. I've seen the effects of body shame on men - it leads to the same troubles as women, and sometimes worse because men are not *supposed* to ever have those troubles.

I have no comment overall on the N word. It makes me shudder when I hear it, but I'm the type to throw up my hands in such a situation and say, "Meh. To each their own." I see many valid points and have enjoyed watching this discussion.
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Post by Windwalker » Tue Apr 24, 2007 5:24 am

This is madness. :lol: Within my extended group of mates, C*** is just a swearword and far more guys get called c*** than girls. And when we are called c*** it's accepted as just another word, like if someone had called us a f***er. (I have a friend whose favourite expression of irritation is "c***-rag!" which is the most disgusting and unladylike expression ever conceived :lol: But it has thankfully completely desensitised me to the word and many others like it. C*** used to be offensive to me.... now it is not.)

My sister insists on calling Maori and Polynesians the N word, despite my constant arguments that they're mostly mongloid in ancestry, not negroid, and therefore the N word has as much a relevance to her as it does to the Maoris and 'Nesians. But will she listen to logic? Noooo.....

If it comes to it, I don't like being called a cracker, but for the simple reason that I find it unfair that a white person would get in trouble for calling a black person "the N word" but apparently black people can get away with calling a white person a cracker. We're typing cracker, but not "the N word". Which is okay, because that word has a lot of bad blood attached to it.

In New Zealand, the word for white people is "pakeha". It means, according to various people, "stranger/foreigner", "white pig", or "white devil". (There seems to be little consensus on this, for some reason.) The government uses this term all the time, but very very few white people here like it. Even if the word meant "stranger", the least offensive of those meanings, we still would hate using it. We're not strangers, we were born here! On my mother's side I'm a 5th generation New Zealander, which is pretty good considering the age of the country. For the same reason, we won't tick "New Zealand European" on the census. We all tick "other" and fill in "Kiwi". (I keep saying "we" and "we all". I don't mean that all caucasian New Zealanders do this, but 90% of the ones I know do. I'm overgeneralising, I know ;) ) We like to think of ourselves as Kiwis and even though our ancestors are Europeans, we are not. Been in the country for five years and still haven't lost that Italian accent? Fear not, if you think of yourself as a Kiwi, we'll think of you the same way. (Albiet a Kiwi with a sexy accent.) All these forms should have a "caucasian" box. We don't use the term much here. It's always "pakeha". Having said that, "pakeha" has stopped appearing on forms quite so often, probably because no one ever ticked them, and having your statistics say that 10% of the population was a "pakeha" when it's clearly up around 60% was probably bugging people somewhat.

Being of the majority here, caucasians I mean, we don't really know the other side of the issue. Sure, there are more Maori coming from poor backgrounds, and that's a shame. Poverty is never pleasant, and it DOES smack of unfairness that there's a disproportionate number of Maori living in poor areas. Does that make it fair that there are university scholarships that can only be achieved by Maori students? I dunno... there are arguments for both sides.

I feel that a person should be judged on their merits, not on their race or gender or sexual orientation. If this means that your law firm is full of men because the best applicants all happened to be men, fine. If this means that your scholarships all go to Samoan kids because all the best students were Samoan, also fine. Unfortunately, we can't always trust the person hiring to make the right choices - especially if their internal prejudice meter is working without their being aware of it. That man hiring for his law firm might not be aware that he was mentally appraising all the male applicants differently to the way he did the women. Maybe not.

I forget my original point. It was probably along the lines of "can't we all just get along?!" or "people are so sensitive nowadays!". Political correctness can go too far - like that chaplain who decided he was a Wiccan and then complained when the army fired him.
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Post by daibanjo » Tue Apr 24, 2007 9:20 am

I'm a bit late getting in on this but I have to say that i dislike foul language. OK i'm old fashioned. There never is any reason to use that kind of talk and i tend to avoid those people who use it on a regular basis.
As for the much debated "N" word, it's a put-down word. It always has been and it still is. My point to black people who think it's all right for them to use it amongst themselves is;
"How can you expect me to respect the black man if he doesn't respect himself?"
And yes, i do object to derogatory remarks against my own culture. When i was a kid in Wales there was a "Nursery" rhyme that went;
Taffy was a welshman
Taffy was a thief.
Taffy came to my house
And stole a lump of beef.

"Taffy" is what english people call someone from Wales.
few things get me as worked up as the use of language to put others down and place them in inferior positions. It's done to almost every group on the planet.
Unfortunately there are those in society who are making themselves rich and famous by playing this card and positioning themselves as the champion of their particular ethnic group. They have a vested interest in keeping their group on the defensive and do more to harm than to heal. So when Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton want to look into the causes of prejudice in America, I tell them to look in a mirror.

I don't often get into a rant but this subject has stirred me.
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Post by Willow » Tue Apr 24, 2007 10:27 am

I like when you are tirred Daibanjo, your comments are insightful.

We had rhymes like that when we were kids too.

Chinese, Japanese dirty knees money please. I still can't believe that our teachers taught us that one.
Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
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