NARNIA. christian propoganda opportunity.

Welcome to Fundies! Here you can discuss, vent about, or bash fundamentalists of all persuasions. That means pagan fundies, too.
Post Reply

Could we get this banned from shops by complaining?

Poll ended at Fri Jan 06, 2006 9:17 pm

NO
4
36%
HA Ha HA. Are you "ON" something?
7
64%
 
Total votes: 11

User avatar
Kystar
Level 57
Level 57
Posts: 1684
Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 7:46 am
Location: White Oak, PA
Zodiac: Cancer
Contact:

Post by Kystar » Fri Jan 06, 2006 8:51 am

morgana wrote:Thanks Kystar, ya beat me to the lecture! There's Pandora, Vittorio, and Armand who all tell their stories while Lestat is comatose, then more stuff happens, and a new vampire comes along named Merrick (at which point the Mayfair Witches series becomes a bit tied in), then another vampire named Quinn comes into the picture and the story more heavily involves the Mayfair witches.
Honestly, I don't believe I read Merrick. I think I kind of stopped at Blood and Gold...b/c I was just losing the focus. Couldn't get into the stories anymore.

I read the Mayfair Witches books ages ago! I didn't realize at the time that she would be merging the two series.
You say "Witch" like it's a bad thing!

User avatar
Willow
Level 86
Level 86
Posts: 2550
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2004 9:35 am
Location: Canada
Contact:

Post by Willow » Fri Jan 06, 2006 11:03 am

One of my worst ever nightmares was about Vampires. I think it will be sometime before I can work up the nerve to read any of the books, although I hear they are phenomenal.
Blessings
Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
Dr. Seuss (1904 - 1991)

User avatar
Kystar
Level 57
Level 57
Posts: 1684
Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 7:46 am
Location: White Oak, PA
Zodiac: Cancer
Contact:

Post by Kystar » Fri Jan 06, 2006 4:58 pm

I'm sorry that you have bad dreams about them Willow.

I have no real problems with them...I have a character who has been part of my creative mind since 1991 who is a Vampire.

In fact, I actually classify part of my personality as my "inner Vamp"...my dark side.
You say "Witch" like it's a bad thing!

User avatar
Willow
Level 86
Level 86
Posts: 2550
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2004 9:35 am
Location: Canada
Contact:

Post by Willow » Sat Jan 07, 2006 6:47 am

its funny, I have met people who are vampires and I am always fine with them, its just that in books my imagination tends to go crazy, I was pretty young so the dream seemed a lot freakier then.
--------------------------------

I was in the basement in my old house with someone who I didn't know but I assumed was a friend in school. Anyway, the lights went out and somehow she changed and I could still see her (Its a dream right?) any way she had turned into a vampire and looked at me and my sisters and said, if you can get out of the house you are free to go but if I catch you you are mine.
Anyway, after this point the only thing in my dream was sound and emotion. One by one I heard my sisters scream and die I somehow got trapped in my Dad's tool room where the back door was, I was trying to get the door open but it was stuck, I heard a breath and then felt something scratch my neck, I woke up and screamed bloody murder, my Mom thought I was dying, I wouldn't sleep alone or without the lights on for a week.

Anyway, it was much scarier in my dream, as the emotions were what freaked me out, probably more than the vampire. I kept feeling guilty I hadn't saved my sisters (I am the oldest and this is a recurring theme in my dreams), scared and upset all at the same time.

Anyway, I think I will read the books sometime in the next year or two, I think it would help me to realize vampires aren't actually like that in real life.

I think its cool you are that in touch with yourself to identify your inner dark side, sometimes I feel like my darkest side is a meadow on a partially clouded day ! :)
Blessings
Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
Dr. Seuss (1904 - 1991)

User avatar
Crazy Healer Lady
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 3589
Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2005 6:31 pm
Location: Mission, BC
Zodiac: Libra
Contact:

Post by Crazy Healer Lady » Sat Jan 07, 2006 11:52 am

sometimes I feel like my darkest side is a meadow on a partially clouded day !
:lol: awwwww 8-)
Crazy Healer Lady
Health and happiness to you!

The purpose of a relationship is not to have another who might complete you, but to have another with whom you might share your completeness. -CWG

User avatar
Artemisblessed
Level 12
Level 12
Posts: 355
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2005 12:57 pm
Location: Lynn, MA
Contact:

Post by Artemisblessed » Tue Jan 10, 2006 11:14 am

i always thought vampires were cool because they have this whole "goth-before-it-was-a-trend" thing about them, and it's not really their fault. that's just how they are. plus, there's the fact that, in a time of prudence (any time but the present :lol: ), they represented pure human drive and nature. (i.e., passion).

but that has nothing to do with it, i swear!!!
:^o :^o :^o
Treat every new person you meet as if they will be an important influence on you later (you know, love thy neighbor?)

User avatar
Ragnar
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 2820
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2005 12:26 pm
Location: Preußen (Deutschland).
Contact:

Post by Ragnar » Thu Feb 09, 2006 1:18 pm

I had a pet project whilst I was at Edinburgh Uni, and had access to all the ethnology and religion librarys.

It was to find out about were wolves (Nice doggy). Whilst doing that I came accross a mention of vampyres on a few occassions.

But, nothing could I find that had any reference to vampyres before Bram Stoker.

Even the Carpathian Vampyre myths can not be trace back further than 1890, when Stoker did his research.

So where did the ideas come from?

Where they pure "fantasy fiction" by Stoker, in a fit of pique, when Vlad the impaler turned out not to be as exciting, or exclusive, as he thought?
(Ivan the Terrible did Exactly the same as Vlad, as did some of the Mongolian tribes.)

Have any of you got any other information? :-?

User avatar
Paganlight
Level 6
Level 6
Posts: 171
Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2005 2:34 pm
Location: Under the Blessing Tree
Contact:

Post by Paganlight » Thu Feb 09, 2006 2:51 pm

I've done some meagre research of my own, and suprisingly, the earliest reference of Vampirisim that I've found comes from the bible, and the story of Cain. I saw it on the internet a while back as well...

Hang on, I'll dig it out.
Adam and Eve had two sons, Cain, a tiller of the ground, and Abel, a shepherd. Both brought offerings to God, Cain brought the fruits of the ground, and Abel, brought one of his flock as an offering. God approved of Abel’s offering, but not that of Cain’s. Cain became very angry at this. As he and Abel where in the field on day, Cain rose up and struck his brother repeatedly until he was dead. God asked Cain “Where is your brother?” and Cain answered “Am I my brother's keeper?”. God then asked Cain what he had done, that his brothers blood cried to him from the earth. For his punishment in slaying his brother, Cain was cursed, the ground would not produce anything for him any longer, a fugitive and vagabond he would be.
Cain told God his punishment was more than he could bear, to always be hidden from the face of God and driven out from the face of the earth. Cain also told God his concern of being killed, but God set a mark upon Cain that if any should harm him, they would suffer punishment sevenfold. Cain then left into the land of Nod.

In myth, it is said that the curse that God had set upon Cain was to be cast into a world of darkness with a continuous craving for blood, and this curse has been passed from generation to generation, all the way up to the vampires of today. It is said that when Cain went into the world of darkness, that he became acquainted with Lilith, the first wife of Adam. She had given some of her blood to Cain, which awakened him to his ability. After wandering for years in the wild, he returned to being amongst the mortals where he built a city called Enoch. There, Cain created the second generation of vampires by turning three mortals, they in turn created a third generation of vampires in vast numbers, and Cain finally forbade the creation of vampires from thence on.
After some time, the city Cain had built was destroyed by a flood. Cain ended up abandoning the city and leaving all the generations of vampires behind to do what ever they wanted, but before he left, he reminded them of his command to not create any more vampires. The vampires completely rebelled against Cain’s command and made a 4th generation of vampires, who rose up against the elder vampires.
(from http://www.vampire-coven.com/vampireorigin.html)

The problem is that we have very little in the way of documented evidence for Lilith - in the bible at any rate. We do, however, know she was a Goddess.

This site ( http://www.gotojassminesitenow.com/godd ... llith.html ) has this as the story of Lillith:
LEGEND OF LILLITH - "My name thou knowest not, and yet shall know, And know too late. But, know thou this indeed: Joy is my sister. Sister I, to Death." It is said that Lillith was the twin sister of Adam and dwelt with him in the Garden at Paradise. Adam was king of Eden and Lillith wished to be co-ruler with him, but the Lord of Light permitted it not. Lillith was beautiful and wise. She wearied of her brother, Adam, who was less wise than she. Lillith refused to bear children from Adam. The Lord of Light was angered and turned Lillith out of Paradise. Samuel, an angel of the Lord of Light and a son of god, fell in love with Lillith. To Samuel, Lillith bore three half-god, half-human children, all called the nephilim. Their wisdom, power and beauty was so great that the children of Darkness were afraid of them and called them monstrous names to defile them. Lillith would not be defiled. From her beloved Samuel she learned the wisdom of the Lord of Light and became the first witch. She lived as a daughter of the night mother, calling the people to dance and be joyous by the light of the moon. Her symbol was the night owl, and those who followed her called her Arionrhod. The children of Darkness trembled and barred their doors at night seeking to protect themselves lest Lillith take them and teach them the ways of the wise ones, the witches of old.

Litllith is an archetype for the woman who refuses to be dominated by man. She was created the stories say when Adam was created from dust just as Adam was, she claimed to be his equal. When Adam wanted to lie with her she wanted to know why she must be on the bottom. This shows she was in full control of her sexuality. She is a largely misunderstood archetype who has been called Poetress of Darkness, Imp of Impetuosity, and Occasional Serpent of Seduction. . She is deeply committed to her personal freedom and keeps her moral strength alive. She was kicked out of Eden and then Adam was given another wife. In some tales she is the snake of the garden who tempted Eve. Some stories say she is a demon,others a fallen angel. . She has a mysterious power that is permanent, direct, and instinctual. To be cast out for not obeying your husband is enough to make you a snake or a demon in the history of the Jewish people.
So we have two conflicting stories about 'Lillith' or Arianhrod - one that she was the first Vampire, one a Goddess and the first witch.

It was when I was learning Anglo Saxon when it came to me that if spellings can change and new words can come in, what if I was appraching it from the wrong angle? I then took to reseaarching the orgins of the WORD 'Vampire'.
The term vampir was used in Russia and in other Slavic lands such as Poland and Serbia. The word vampir may possibly be derived from the Magyar (Hungarian) language, although some say that vampir is related to the Russian word peets which means "to drink."

Vrykolakas was the Greek term for vampire. The Greek vampire may have been a person who was excommunicated from the Orthodox Church prior to death.

Ekimmu was a vampire spirit of ancient Babylonia which rose from the dead when hungry, especially if foolish humans forgot to leave food sacrifices near his grave. When hungry he returned to earth for human blood.

Murony was a vampire from Wallachia which was a shapeshifter as well as a bloodsucker. It could change its form into that of a dog, a cat, an insect or another creature. In Wallachian lore, a person who died unexpectedly was highly suspect of becoming a vampire. Sudden death was assumed to be the work of a vampire. Sometimes a long spike or nail was punched into the skull of a dead body to prevent it from returning from the grave. The Murony may also be seen as a werewolf, a living human who became a dog or wolf at night and hunted other animals especially cattle.

Lithuanian vampires apparently got drunk on blood, not being content to simply have a sip or two of the bright, red liquid. In Lithuanian the word wempti meant "to drink."

The English word "vampire" (also spelled "vampyre") was first seen in the early 1700s. Its exact origin is unknown. It may have its roots in the Turkish word uber, a term meaning "witch." This word in turn underwent a metamorphosis to Slavic tones to sound like "upior" or "upyr," eventually resulting in the words "vampyre," "vampir" and then "vampire."

In Sanskrit the monster was a Baital. There were other terms for this monster, from the Spanish vampiro and Latin vampyrus, to the unquestionably German-sounding Blutsaeuger (literally, "Bloodsucker") and my favorite, the elegant French version: Le Vampire.

"Nosferatu" is another Eastern European term for vampire, or at least it is believed to be. "Nosferatu" is one of the more curious words for the vampire. The Western world became acquainted with this term first with the Irish writer Bram Stoker in his novel Dracula. Later, in 1922, the word appeared again with the first film ever made about the evil Transylvanian count, called, of course, "Nosferatu." (There were earlier silent films made about vampires, but they no longer exist for viewing purposes.)

The word "nosferatu," however, might not actually be a Slavic word. In fact, it might not be a real word at all. David J. Skal, a modern researcher of vampires, believes that the word "nosferatu" was a mistake or alteration of the Romanian word nesuferit, which comes from ancient Latin and means "not to suffer," or could imply "insufferable" or "intolerable" -- all words descriptive of a vampire's offensive personality. It is argued that Bram Stoker first discovered the word "nosferatu" while doing research for his book Dracula. He apparently read an 1885 writing called Transylvanian Superstitions by Emily de Laszowska Gerard, wherein she used the term "nosferatu" in place of "nesuferit." It is also possible that "nosferatu" could have been a slang term or variant for "nesuferit."

Whatever the case, today "nosferatu" means vampire largely because of director F.W. Murnau's 1922 German film which bears the name.

Still another interpretation of the word "nosferatu," from author Manuela Dunn-Mascetti, implies the word could be related to the Romanian term meaning "unclean one" -- necuratul. The people of Transylvania (which, by the way, is a real place in the Carpathian Mountains of Romania) have long held a belief in the so-called nosferatu (or vampire) -- a term which has demonic connotations as well.
There we see that Vampires have ben around for a long time in different cultures, masquerading under different names. Still on the search, I came across a very interesting article relating to the Black Death:

(from the same site as the above quote: http://www.parascope.com/en/articles/vampires04.htm )
Throughout history the legend of the vampire has been used to "explain" other natural phenomena that primitive people who lacked scientific knowledge could not otherwise explain. Possibly the most astonishing belief which people associated vampires with was the Black Death during the Middle Ages in Europe.

The Black Death, as we now know, was actually Bubonic plague spread by fleas and rats. The plague (which came from the East, not unlike the vampire) may have killed as much as a third of the population of Europe in the 1300s. Some people of the day, however, associated the multitude of deaths with vampires. Somehow they believed that the deaths were the workings of these monsters; perhaps the vampires spread plague, they may have thought. In some cases people believed a deceased relative returned as a vampire and killed a victim (who actually died of the plague). Alternately, it was believed a dead enemy could return and kill someone turning the victim into a vampire as well. Many graves were dug up and the bodies of suspected vampires mutilated to "kill" the vampire.
That's just a selection of the very interesting article, which goes on to talk about how Vampiric graves were 'located', some of the (very bizzare) methods used to stop the spread of Vampirisim. From the same document later on....
The Church in Europe during the Middle Ages came to recognize the existence of vampires and changed it from a pagan folk myth into a creature of the Devil. The vampire, though clearly a thing of evil and a pagan myth, had its believability reinforced by preexisting Christian doctrines such as life after death, the resurrection of the body, and "transubstantiation." This was a concept based on the Last Supper and the dogma of Pope Innocent the III in 1215 A.D., that the "bread and wine" and its equivalent during Christian Communion literally transubstantiated into the actual body and blood of Christ. People who adhered to this belief, and who consumed the blood of Christ, would have little difficulty in believing the corrupted corollary to this -- the drinking of blood by evil demons, namely, vampires.

The Church during the Middle Ages gave credence to the belief in vampires, concluded that it alone had the power to stop vampirism, and then reinforced this position two centuries later in 1489 with its landmark book, Malleus Maleficarum........Two centuries after this, evidence that the Church still clung to a belief in vampires was found in the writing of the noted theologian Leo Allatius. As a Church scholar he studied the vrykolakas, the Greeks' concept of the vampire. In his 1645 work called On the Current Opinions of Certain Greeks, he concluded that vampires were often the result of excommunication. Proof of their vampirism is that the body does not decay, indicating that it cannot leave this earthly plane. A swollen body was also evidence of possible vampirism. As some bodies might not decay rapidly due to the type of chemicals in the soil or the cold air temperature, and since bodily swelling was the result of naturally produced gasses in a corpse, many a dead man was wrongly presumed to be a vampire. Oddly enough, incorruptibility --the failure of the dead body to decay -- was also a sign of holiness, even evidence of saintliness. The difference was that a vampire did not totally decay but did become grotesque in form with discoloration and bloating, while a holy body remained almost perfectly intact as if still alive. Also, vampires smelled bad during the lack of decay, whereas sanctified bodies did not.......Proof of the Church's power over vampires (and hence the power of the crucifix or holy cross to scare off vampires -- although more modern vampires appear to be less susceptible to this) dates all the way back, at least, to Medieval England. A writer named William of Newburgh discussed the case of a man who died in the 12th century A.D. Supposedly he rose from the dead to torment his wife. After causing much consternation with the local villagers and clergy, the bishop of the region pardoned the corpse in writing for all his past sins. The grave was opened and the actual written pardon was placed over the body of the "vampire." The people were surprised -- or maybe not -- to see the body was still in good condition without signs of decay, sure proof of vampirism. But fortunately for everyone, once the pardon was placed in the grave, the vampire visited no more. Note that this method of dispelling the vampire with an official Church document was remarkably more civil and legalistic than the ordinary way peasants would dispense with a vampire found in the grave -- by burning the corpse, ripping out its heart, chopping off its head, or giving it the old wooden stake through the heart.
Sorry this turned into a long post, but Vampires have always intrigued me.
"ǽr notian ond æfteryld céosan ǽghwæðer, gehwilc gesælan of árweorðung gān begeondan gelǽran and gelust."
("Till use and old age accept them, and all chance of valour has gone beyone recall or desire...")

User avatar
Ragnar
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 2820
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2005 12:26 pm
Location: Preußen (Deutschland).
Contact:

Post by Ragnar » Thu Feb 09, 2006 3:04 pm

Pagan light, you are one amazing person. Did you know that?

You have found about 80% more than was in the whole Edinburgh Uni on the subject.

Thanks. :hug: :hug:

User avatar
Kelreth
Level 13
Level 13
Posts: 365
Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2005 10:39 pm
Location: Wisconsin, US
Contact:

Post by Kelreth » Thu Feb 09, 2006 3:06 pm

Lilith is from a Holy Book just below the Hebrew Bible. I brought her up in my theo class and blew the prof away. Her stories is from a Gnosis group.

More so the reason she was cast out. Was because she refused to be below Adam during coopulation. The first feminist if you will
i am prone to free association. Basically whatever i think i type, so sorry if things get really erratic...

User avatar
Ragnar
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 2820
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2005 12:26 pm
Location: Preußen (Deutschland).
Contact:

Post by Ragnar » Thu Feb 09, 2006 3:24 pm

Interesting to see that the bible encourages incest. Must remember that next time the joey witnesses come.

Nice people these christian types. :evil:

User avatar
Kelreth
Level 13
Level 13
Posts: 365
Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2005 10:39 pm
Location: Wisconsin, US
Contact:

Post by Kelreth » Thu Feb 09, 2006 8:56 pm

Ragnar you have no idea..... The bible is full of what happens when you dont obey god's every wim. It wiped out 2 cities out of anger supposedly. Fun stuff

I seriusly wonder how people can beleive that a book is what really happened...
i am prone to free association. Basically whatever i think i type, so sorry if things get really erratic...

User avatar
Paganlight
Level 6
Level 6
Posts: 171
Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2005 2:34 pm
Location: Under the Blessing Tree
Contact:

Post by Paganlight » Thu Feb 09, 2006 11:50 pm

Ragnar wrote:Pagan light, you are one amazing person. Did you know that?

You have found about 80% more than was in the whole Edinburgh Uni on the subject.

Thanks. :hug: :hug:
Awwwww! :oops: Thanks, Ragnar!

Kelreth - yeah, Sodom (or should that be Sod'em? ;) ) and Gomorroah (sp?)....I agree totally, look what that did to the lot in the 'Jan Fundies' thread!!!!
"ǽr notian ond æfteryld céosan ǽghwæðer, gehwilc gesælan of árweorðung gān begeondan gelǽran and gelust."
("Till use and old age accept them, and all chance of valour has gone beyone recall or desire...")

User avatar
Brown Eyed Girl
Level 13
Level 13
Posts: 366
Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2005 8:05 am
Location: Birmingham
Contact:

Post by Brown Eyed Girl » Fri Feb 10, 2006 1:44 am

i have a complete and utter vampire fascination.;.. i literally practically had a story with some other vampire occurrence or another from every were :( then my pc blew up :( took me about 6 years to get the collection to.
I've been obsessed with them since i was younger and every one that knows me calls my a typecast vamp lo ls.

Lilith story's always cool I'll add that back to my collection its hard to find much accuracy on it lately, all the old sites have disappeared in the last few years :(
Who is "I" without a past? A river without a source? An event without a cause?

User avatar
Artemisblessed
Level 12
Level 12
Posts: 355
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2005 12:57 pm
Location: Lynn, MA
Contact:

Post by Artemisblessed » Fri Feb 10, 2006 6:17 am

i should probably do some research on the subject myself...see what i can find out...

i don't really like (no offense Pagan Light) having to read other people's research because you never know if they edited.

again, no offense, but that's happened to me before. on a research paper for english class. it burned.
Treat every new person you meet as if they will be an important influence on you later (you know, love thy neighbor?)

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest