Same Old Argument

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Brown Eyed Girl
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Same Old Argument

Post by Brown Eyed Girl » Sat Sep 03, 2005 2:55 am

ever since the uk done the gay mar rage is ok.. alot of the forums im on have gone bonkers

and this is posted on one of them

Image

The bible says it is wrong, therefore it is wrong. The bible is Anti-Gay, therefore I am Anti-Gay!

What kind of love are we really talking about her, philly?

There is only one kind of human love, that is talked about in the Bible, & that is between a man & a woman.

There is no place, where "love" between 2 people of the same sex is talked about, except as being an afront to God.

::slams head into wall::
Who is "I" without a past? A river without a source? An event without a cause?

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Post by socialgreen » Sat Sep 03, 2005 5:52 am

I would not be slamming my head against the wall. This point of view has been going on for centuries. They are very hard to refute considering they consider themselvesw the people of the book and the book does condemn it. The book is considered God breathed and not subject to criticism so they say. I believe Cabalist would say otherwide since they tell that the original texts were tampered with. A lot of occurences made the book what it is today and that includes denominational tamperings going into new translations.
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Post by Ragnar » Sat Sep 03, 2005 10:10 am

"There is only one kind of human love, that is talked about in the Bible, & that is between a man & a woman."

No theres not. They talk about loving "God". Thier "God" is either 1)Male, or 2) of no particular preference. Depending on which fanatic you talk to.
WHY do thier male priests love a male? Or a male of questionable (to them) preferences?
Try that on the next Fundy you meet.

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Post by Crazy Healer Lady » Sat Sep 03, 2005 12:00 pm

I've said it once and I'll say it again: We are animals! And animals are often gay or bisexual!!
When will we learn to say "Hello fellow human!!!"
When will we learn that we have absolutely NO right to judge others!
Gar. At least some places are accepting.
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The purpose of a relationship is not to have another who might complete you, but to have another with whom you might share your completeness. -CWG

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Post by socialgreen » Sat Sep 03, 2005 5:48 pm

Yes I agree CHL that gay and bi do occur in nature. What happens happen even with humans. It is not a learned behavior as Fundies would have everyone believe. I know a Fundie couple whose son turned out to be gay. They disowned him and the his mother quit going to church because she was embarrased because he was gay and what the other church members thought.
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If more of us valued food and cheer and song
above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world.
-- J. R. R. Tolkien

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Post by dragonflydrummer » Sun Sep 04, 2005 12:09 am

This is one of those fun areas where the Bible thumpers have really got their heads stuck in their tushies. They see anything feminine as -- well, if not totally evil & corrupting-- then at least as less than divine. Then they posit an all male trinity -- this is sort of a "gay holy family" -- the Father, the Son, and That Other Guy, who is left more or less undefined... sort of like a Casper the Friendly Ghost kinda dude.

Okay so -- the divine role model is an all-male family -- but then actually doing that is really really bad. :lol: This is some kind of set-up isn't it?
At least lesbianism is more acceptable -- presumably since women are out of the divine loop anyway it's more or less okay, as long as they don't try expressing it in the open, marry, try to own property or take possession of the children (especially in a two-mother household).

What is wrong with these Xtian people? Life is hard enough. Everything just doesn't have to be so guilt-ridden & wrong... :scratch:
The spirit abides immovable; it beholds the infernal monsters swarm down upon it, and does not fear. (Eliphas Levi -- The Sixth Hour)

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Post by scoia » Sun Sep 04, 2005 4:53 pm

I suppose I'm not really helping things, but if you really want to view a diatribe on this subject from a nutjob xtian, go here:

http://www.godhatesfags.com

The article "thank God for Katrina", about the 'sin' of New Orleans being swept away is particularly hateful.

It constantly astounds me that so many Xtians base their beliefs on the old testament while upholding the cult of Jesus. Having read extensively from the Bible in my RC schooldays, I dont' have anything against the teachings of Jesus. I think the world would be a very different place if Xtians actually followed those teachings which are based on LOVE and compassion.

Constantly referring to the Jewish teachings on these subjects is just an excuse for this hatefilled invective.
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Post by Kystar » Sun Sep 04, 2005 8:09 pm

I think that's one of the issues that drove me away from Xtianityat a young age (per 1st Holy Communion!)...the fact that rules from the Old Testament were practically reversed in the New. WTF, people? Which reading is correct? I mean, both can't be right! But the Bible is infaliable...and can't be questioned!

It's really bad when you're struggling to find a reason to believe and you're only 8! Mom made me go through 1st Holy Communion because it was her "duty" since she had be Batized. Otherwise, "what WOULD people think?!


Hypocrasy is the name of the game. My Tony and I go on rants with each other about how its a shame that the only religion that has no symbiosis with the Earth is the one to be in control. Growl.

OH well. Eventually Mother Nature will teach them how stupid they really are.
You say "Witch" like it's a bad thing!

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Post by dragonflydrummer » Sun Sep 04, 2005 11:52 pm

Quoting from godhatesfags.com --via scoia:
In summary, sodomites are wicked and sinners before the Lord exceedingly (Gen. 13:13), are violent and doom nations (Gen. 19:1-25; Jgs. 19), are abominable to God (Lev. 18:22), are worthy of death for their vile, depraved, unnatural sex practices (Lev. 20:13; Rom. 1:32), are called dogs because they are filthy, impudent and libidinous (Deut. 23:17,18; Mat. 7:6; Phil. 3:2), produce by their very presence in society a kind of mass intoxication from their wine made from grapes of gall from the vine of Sodom and the fields of Gomorrah which poisons society's mores with the poison of dragons and the cruel venom of asps (Deut. 32:32,33), declare their sin and shame on their countenance (Isa. 3:9), are shameless and unable to blush (Jer. 6:15), are workers of iniquity and hated by God (Psa. 5:5), are liars and murderers (Jn. 8:44), are filthy and lawless (2 Pet. 2:7,8 ), are natural brute beasts (2 Pet. 2:12), are dogs eating their own vomit and sows wallowing in their own feces (2 Pet. 2:22), will proliferate at the end of the world bringing final judgment on mankind (Lk. 17:28-30), have been finally given up by God to uncleanness dishonoring their own bodies among themselves, to vile affections, and to a reprobate mind such that they cannot think straight about anything (Rom. 1:23-28 ), have wholly given themselves over to fornication and gone after strange flesh (Jude 7), must be pulled as faggots from the fire (Jude 23), and have no hope of Heaven unless they repent (Rev. 22:15), which they can't do in their prideful state (Jer. 6:15). They need to hear this truth if they are to have any hope of penitence, faith in Jesus Christ and salvation (I Timothy 4:2-4).
Maaannnnnnn -- this guy has some issues! I especially find the part about the dogs and pigs very colorful... :lol:

Nothing there about mean-spirited bigots though... hmmmmmm...
The spirit abides immovable; it beholds the infernal monsters swarm down upon it, and does not fear. (Eliphas Levi -- The Sixth Hour)

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Post by socialgreen » Mon Sep 05, 2005 5:09 am

A lot of those types behind pulpits are similar to the people of godhatesfags.com but are not the topic of the media or have websites like this. I have known a few who were totally against inter-racial marriges and would preach that those who did were embarrasments to their families and community.
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Post by dragonflydrummer » Mon Sep 05, 2005 8:11 am

If you ground your bigotry in the (supposed) Word of God, what chance is there for you to learn and grow? You're stuck if you do that. You can't adapt, and you can only survive by gathering a lot of reactionary people like yourself together and trying to stifle any change. This is I think, reflected in the Creationsm idea, and explains why Xtian Fundies are so threatened by any ideas of Evolution. For people in such a mind-set change would truly be death -- the complete erosion of their world-view. Of course change, evolution, and diversity are inevitable -- so deep down underneath it all, aren't they just really scared?
:binky:

I personally find the open-mindedness so prevalent among the pagan communities to be a breath of fresh air when compared to these stifling hate-mongers...
The spirit abides immovable; it beholds the infernal monsters swarm down upon it, and does not fear. (Eliphas Levi -- The Sixth Hour)

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Post by 2Crunchy » Mon Sep 05, 2005 12:32 pm

Man I hate Bible thumpers who don't know their Bible. So there is NO love except that between a man and a woman found in the Bible? BS!!!!!!! What about David and Jonathan? What about Jesus and his "Most-beloved Disciple", most Christians would consider that to be John. What about Ruth and Naomi? By the way, there is absolutely NO condemnation in the Bible against woman having sex with other women. NONE! Only against men lying with other men. Go ahead and look. I think it is funny how lesbianism somehow got lumped in there with that one.
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Post by socialgreen » Mon Sep 05, 2005 1:57 pm

dragonflydrummer wrote:
If you ground your bigotry in the (supposed) Word of God, what chance is there for you to learn and grow? You're stuck if you do that. You can't adapt, and you can only survive by gathering a lot of reactionary people like yourself together and trying to stifle any change. This is I think, reflected in the Creationsm idea, and explains why Xtian Fundies are so threatened by any ideas of Evolution. For people in such a mind-set change would truly be death -- the complete erosion of their world-view. Of course change, evolution, and diversity are inevitable -- so deep down underneath it all, aren't they just really scared?
I don't really think they are scared but rather smug with self rightousness with their noses in the air. This is what I remember them being The only thing that they are afraid of is being left behind and going to hell and the lake of fire where my avatar awaits them. I can say this for sure that once a person starts down the Fundie road that person soon becomes indoctrinated and their minds start closing to the rest of the world. However, there is some adaptation to what is current in trends and such (which includes language, clothing and music) but that is only wearing a mask so to appeal to would be disciple.

They are indignant with evolution because it goes agaist the creation story and they want everyone to believe it one way or another hence their political activity. Fundies most certainly believe they grow spiritually through prayer and memorizing scripture. They also think everyones elses spiritual path is wrong being the work of Satan and demons. It's really a warped sense of spirituality if you asked me. That is what dogma can do to people. I had to spend some time getting psychological help because I thought I was hell bound. Yeah, they really messed my head up when I was a teenager and it has taken years to undo the damage.

2Crunchy wrote:
Man I hate Bible thumpers who don't know their Bible. So there is NO love except that between a man and a woman found in the Bible? BS!!!!!!! What about David and Jonathan? What about Jesus and his "Most-beloved Disciple", most Christians would consider that to be John. What about Ruth and Naomi? By the way, there is absolutely NO condemnation in the Bible against woman having sex with other women. NONE! Only against men lying with other men. Go ahead and look. I think it is funny how lesbianism somehow got lumped in there with that one.
Xians do believe in love but they think that gay or bi love is only the lust of the flesh not being true love whatsoever. They would say that the love between the people you mentioned were just close friends who were loyal to each other. Paul wrote in Romans (1:24-27) that both men and women did change their natural use for each other. Men with men and women with women (having sex) being against nature which God condemned them to a reprobate mind. If you haven't noticed is that these relationships were considered by Paul a choice based on burning lust and not love. On the other hand, I known males in church when I was younger who are now openly gay. They told me that they knew they were gay at a very young age. In other words, there was no choice even though they tried to supress what they were. It took me years to realise that people can be born gay or bi.
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If more of us valued food and cheer and song
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Post by socialgreen » Tue Sep 06, 2005 5:07 pm

What? No response? I believe time is better spent not trying to ague with the Fundies. I mean we are not trying to convert them but they us. Usually, people, like my self, end up leaving anyways. New people always show up with bigger donations and better tithe giving. :roll:
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If more of us valued food and cheer and song
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Post by dragonflydrummer » Tue Sep 06, 2005 8:54 pm

socialgreen--

I really don't have anything to add to your recounting of your experience.

Okay here's something that I saw today. There's this young woman at work -- I think that she's from a white Baptist background, and decidedly evangelist -- leaving little photocopied anecdotes pointing towards salvation high-lighted in pink marker in the lunch room. You pretty much know the type.

As the war has gone badly for her beloved Bush, and now with the chaos in New Orleans all over the news and all the other crazy stuff happening that I'm sure to her mind bears the stamp of the hand of God -- she's taken to dressing in very austere black and carrying the Bible with her everywhere and of course reading it with a sort of disturbed aire at lunch and break-times. Man, she is really frightened. It is not turning out the way the preacher at church told her it would y'know...?

I don't think there's much hope for her to confront those fears until she puts that freakin' book down. But hey, what do I know??? :smt114
The spirit abides immovable; it beholds the infernal monsters swarm down upon it, and does not fear. (Eliphas Levi -- The Sixth Hour)

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