Would you find this offensive too?

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Kystar
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Post by Kystar » Fri Mar 04, 2005 6:30 am

The situation has to determine if I'll keep quiet.

If it is a friend who has been a true friend to me about everything else, who doesn't push their ideas on me, but who feels the need to "correct" me if the conversation goes to religion, then I would most likely agree to disagree and keep the subject out of our conversations.

If it is someone I work with or go to class with who has been making false assumptions or accusations, I would CERTAINLY speak up and set them straight. I have, on occasion, actually. My best statement was in high school civics class. I don't know if I've ever said it here, but I apologize if I'm repeating myself.

Someone was saying how it's not right that the holidays are being watered down to be PC...and how this is a christian country, yada yada. I told them that if it was a Christian country, how come the founding fathers put the 1st Amendment in the Consititution? (We were given open debate days.) He countered with they were trying to be nice, but they shouldn't have been, because the only "true" religion was Xtianity. I said that we have a legal right to be part of any religion we please, so long as it doesn't break any laws, and if he wanted to try and take away my 1st Amendment right, he can go ahead, but he'll come right up against my 2nd Amendment Right. That's about when the Teacher broke in with the reasons for the 1st and 2nd Amendment...to defuse the situation.

It depends on if speaking up would hurt or help the relationship you have with the person. That's how I make the call. would talking about religion help or hurt what I'm trying to build with person? Or do I even care?

There's a difference about keeping quiet to not upset a friend and cause things to be said that both will regret, and keeping quiet out of fear.
You say "Witch" like it's a bad thing!

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Post by Raven » Fri Mar 04, 2005 1:41 pm

I usually do speak up, no matter who it is or what they are saying, i take my beliefs seriously and cherish my rights as an American. Depending on how close they are to me regulates how nice i am to them. although i always stay civil, i can be damn cold sometimes. I try not to, just because it makes them make even more asumptions about our kind, but when they tell me i'm WRONG for believing what i do.... it gets very hard. I guess i'm still young and have yet to learn patience eh?
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Re: Pardon me but...

Post by melina » Sun Mar 06, 2005 3:18 pm

dragonflydrummer wrote: Isn't the answer to that kind of closed-minded oppression to speak up? More importantly isn't it paramount in the face of that "religion" of denial & guilt to live a life openly and freely which comprises the things you really do cherish and believe? Somehow staying silent just makes you sort of a sub-Xtian. One that if she/he stays nice & quiet all their life might still get into 'heaven' after a few hundred years in Purgatory.

:brave: :brave: :brave:

I think the answer to a Xtian relegating me to Purgatory, be they friend or not is : "How the hell would you know?"
I'm not advising Raven to hide in the shadows. I'm just saying that there are some people who you shouldn't talk about religion with. Again, not saying for you to pretend not to be Pagan, just find someone else to discuss it with. And of course, like I said, you're gonna have to tell her she can't give you the Jesus and Heaven/Hell pep talk. It'd be super to go on a crusade and force your religion down her throat and MAKE her accept it, but it's extremely possible that you'd lose a friend in the process. There are always things about your friends you can't support. I have ex-druggie friends and friends who slept around, and yeah I have told them I don't like what they did, but I don't freaking excommunicate them from my life. Like I said, Susie's a fundie and we disagree on a bunch of stuff, but I look past that and see that she's a great person who makes me happy and is there for me, so who the hell cares if she doesn't agree with my religion?

The main thing most Pagans don't realize is that everything in religion is a two way street. We don't want Christians cramming bible qoutes down our throat, so we shouldn't go around trying to teach them the Wiccan Rede.

I really think I was off topic about 8 times there... My apologies I have the flu. If something doesn't make sense ignore it.
Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!-

Isaiah 5:20

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dragonflydrummer
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Post by dragonflydrummer » Tue Mar 08, 2005 1:01 am

Melina wrote:
The main thing most Pagans don't realize is that everything in religion is a two way street. We don't want Christians cramming bible quotes down our throat, so we shouldn't go around trying to teach them the Wiccan Rede.
The fact of the matter is that Xtians do cram their religion down our throats all the time whether we talk about our views or not. They also do very strange things like distort paganism into devil-worship and yada-yada...

What I am suggesting is that by standing up for what I believe I have a better chance of truly being understood by my friend, and also set a clear definition of my boundaries. What kind of friend is it that you always have to be quiet about what you really think around, while they expound upon their very unbalanced philosophy? And if you both just agree to not discuss anything you don't have the same points-of-view about -- is that friendship?

Anyway I don't think I said anything about evangelizing with the Witches Rede. I simply admire standing up against what appears to me to be very prevalent Xtian prejudice -- even with friends.

:huge: :bisou: :crazy2: :wave:
The spirit abides immovable; it beholds the infernal monsters swarm down upon it, and does not fear. (Eliphas Levi -- The Sixth Hour)

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Purgotorial friends

Post by Ragnar » Sun Mar 27, 2005 12:38 pm

Aye, they always come out of the wood work eventually. Like a Cop, you can never trust a christian.
It doesn't matter HOW open minded they say they are, as soon as they find that YOU are one of the "Johnny foreigner chappies with the funny religion", that they are trying to be SO liberal about. Then its "Pugatory, sulphur and brimstone for you, pal".
We defeat their principal belief, that there is only one God. Our very existence undermines the strangle hold of their priests. As does the existence of ANY religion that is not passed as "kosher" by the Vatican Gestapo. It reveals the very first thing their religion tells them, "there is only one God", as a lie. So seriously decreasing the pocket money from the audience that the priest gets every Sunday.
Cynical? Cynisism is born of experience.

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baaaa-aaaa-aaaa-aaaah....

Post by dragonflydrummer » Sat Jun 04, 2005 2:45 am

Ragnar said:
It doesn't matter HOW open minded they say they are, as soon as they find that YOU are one of the "Johnny foreigner chappies with the funny religion", that they are trying to be SO liberal about. Then its "Pugatory, sulphur and brimstone for you, pal".
How true. It is often repeated that "Ignorance is Bliss." In the case of the xtian true believer -- ignorance is an excuse to exclude anyone that doesn't believe exactly what you do. The entire belief system (after Paul got his organizational mitts on it), is designed to herd people together. One of their greatest weapons is to ostracize an individual from a group and make her or him a 'pariah' until they join in.

Whenever you yourself are experiencing this Xtian "shunning" technique, don't worry -- it means you are getting to them where it hurts. You are thinking for yourself, and that is a thing that they cannot tolerate. Eventually though, if you stand your ground they will begin to assimilate your stance into the "group-think" and act as if they never thought any way other than that. It is best however, for the one who is made the 'outsider' to not care about being on the 'outs.' Finding others who are open-minded and/or agree with your way of thinking works best, but if you're the "lone-wolf" type and enjoy pissing them off that can work too.

There's safety in numbers, it is oftimes said, but acting like a sheep is aways dumb (unless of course you actually want to be one...)

:smt081 :smt096 :smt101 :smt096 :smt081
The spirit abides immovable; it beholds the infernal monsters swarm down upon it, and does not fear. (Eliphas Levi -- The Sixth Hour)

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Post by Ragnar » Sun Jun 05, 2005 4:07 am

Hej, I think we are following each other around again.
I think I am pretty lucky in that my family were always Pagan/Heathen, so this "shunning" didn't really affect me. As Norse we do tend to be loners. There are, of course, groups that follow the religeon, but most of the actual Spiritual/magical side is done solo. Even among the groups.
They tend to be more of a support network of like minded people rather than any thing that could be called a "church".
A bit like I view this web site actualy.
I wonder how long it will be before the "cus censoring machine" gets to youre letter then? HE HE.

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CUS censoring machine ...phhhhht.... :-P

Post by dragonflydrummer » Sun Jun 05, 2005 8:17 am

At times I wonder about their censoring it too. Oh well, there's plenty more 'piss 'n vinegar' where that came from.... heh heh heh.... :lol:
The spirit abides immovable; it beholds the infernal monsters swarm down upon it, and does not fear. (Eliphas Levi -- The Sixth Hour)

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Post by Ragnar » Sun Jun 05, 2005 3:16 pm

I think the poor dears are sleeping.

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Post by scoia » Sun Jun 05, 2005 8:59 pm

I'm a terribly bad example, but when someone says sometihng like that to me, ESP someone who knows me gets flamed very quickly.

While I do have trouble controlling my temper, there's really no excuse for it either. It would be completely unsupportable for me to push anything onto anyone else, why should she be any different?

Just because she's a Christian doesn't mean she had a right to pontificate. (ha...ha......ha.........sorry bout that one).

;) And the trekkie knowlege in here truly scares me.
First they ignore you.
Then they laught at you.
Then they fight you.
Then you win.
--Ghandi

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Ragnar
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Post by Ragnar » Mon Jun 06, 2005 1:22 am

Scoia. Hmmm...O.K. Its possibly early morning, or late at night, but are you sure you are answering the right post here? I would be facinated to hear more, at the moment it does seem to be in the middle of another conversation.
Maybe its just me!
(edit) O:K: O:K: its me, I just read the reason whay this is on the boards. I.e, I read the first letter.
It's really confusing when some one talks about the topic subject. It throws ALL kinds of spanners in the works.
Aye, Scoia, your post now makes sense.

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Post by scoia » Mon Jun 06, 2005 4:46 pm

:lol: Apologies, I'll try to follow the 'thread of the thread' in future.
First they ignore you.
Then they laught at you.
Then they fight you.
Then you win.
--Ghandi

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an enterprising observation...

Post by dragonflydrummer » Tue Jun 07, 2005 10:53 pm

Scoia said:
And the trekkie knowlege in here truly scares me
Geeez -- You can say that again, Captain... :smt048 :shaking2: :smt048
The spirit abides immovable; it beholds the infernal monsters swarm down upon it, and does not fear. (Eliphas Levi -- The Sixth Hour)

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Re: an enterprising observation...

Post by davisherm » Wed Jun 08, 2005 3:30 pm

dragonflydrummer wrote:Scoia said:
And the trekkie knowlege in here truly scares me
Geeez -- You can say that again, Captain... :smt048 :shaking2: :smt048
My broom has a bumper sticker that says, "My other religion is Star Trek"


Heh.

Yeah. But as far as the original post goes, I'd probaby get pretty up in arms if a friend told me I was going to purgatory. Personally, I'm looking forward to my next life. I think I've done pretty well in this one so far and not made too many terrible mistakes.

Having been recently accosted by fundies who screamed "BUT IF YOU DON'T LISTEN YOU'LL GO TO HELL!" at me when I told them I wasn't interested in what their god was selling, I sure understand the pissed-off feeling. Gods help the friend who tells me something like that.

[soapbox]
And as for the 'censorship', we try to keep things family friendly. A hell or damn here and there isn't really a problem. Everybody slips ever now and then, myself and other mods included. But it's right in the user agreement that everybody agreed to when they signed up.
"While the administrators and moderators of this forum will attempt to remove or edit any generally objectionable material as quickly as possible, it is impossible to review every message. Therefore you acknowledge that all posts made to these forums express the views and opinions of the author and not the administrators, moderators or webmaster (except for posts by these people) and hence will not be held liable.



You agree not to post any abusive, obscene, vulgar, slanderous, hateful, threatening, sexually-oriented or any other material that may violate any applicable laws. Doing so may lead to you being immediately and permanently banned (and your service provider being informed). The IP address of all posts is recorded to aid in enforcing these conditions. You agree that the webmaster, administrator and moderators of this forum have the right to remove, edit, move or close any topic at any time should they see fit."
I don't know that we've actually banned people over this, but it's right there in writing. Generally whichever moderator finds the post first will send a friendly warning message to the user and the post will be edited. Should we have repeat offenders, I imagine that Librarian would take further action.

Like I said, we're not saying 'watch your language or you're going to get slapped in the mouth' or anything. Just to try to keep things family friendly. :) [/soapbox]

Blessings.
"I just want to play on my Panpipes..." Cake

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corrections...

Post by dragonflydrummer » Wed Jun 08, 2005 5:11 pm

apologies -- past posts should read should read: "uric-aciding them off" and "number one and vinegar." #-o

Okay down to brass tacks-- :roll: Captain Janeway made a couple command errors (like losing her ship at one point) and personally I prob'ly would have taken her orders with increasing trepidation after a while -- but how can you say Deep Space Nine, was the better series? In my opinion, the overall writing just did not compare.
The spirit abides immovable; it beholds the infernal monsters swarm down upon it, and does not fear. (Eliphas Levi -- The Sixth Hour)

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