Magician Prescriptions In Canada - A Skeptics View

Now here's something to get steamed up about.
User avatar
white_harmony
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 831
Joined: Sun Apr 06, 2003 2:46 am
Location: Australia
Zodiac: Virgo
Contact:

Magician Prescriptions In Canada - A Skeptics View

Post by white_harmony » Sat Nov 14, 2009 5:34 pm

A long read. Very hard to give an opinion on it at the moment, words seem to fail me lol ... But thought you all may want to read it as well.
The other day, I went to a magic show. The magician manipulated energy fields, pulled toxins out of my stomach, and then gave me a remedy - but there was nothing inside. Then he pulled out a prescription pad, prescribed some Tamiflu, and sent me on my way.

Seem unlikely? Well, the Ontario government is poised to give another type of magician -- the naturopath -- prescribing rights, despite the reams of evidence discrediting their approach to patient health. It's a move that legitimizes a well-meaning but baseless profession, and puts patients at significant risk.

Surely I much be exaggerating, right? After all, naturopaths practice "natural healing", and nature is good, isn't it? Unfortunately for patients, no evidence exists to suggest that naturopaths are capable primary care providers. Naturopathy is a fundamentally flawed idea - and a government blessing only entrenches and magnifies the health risks to Canadians.

....

Naturopathy's key premise is bogus: The key underlying premise of naturopathy is called vitalism: the idea that humans are possessed with a magical quality that transcends the laws of physics. Sometimes called vis medicatrix naturae (the healing power of nature), vitalism is essentially magical thinking: the belief that some type of "energy field" or "life force" can be harnessed and manipulated by the naturopath. Vitalism was rejected by the medical profession decades ago, about the time it was discovered that bloodletting to balance the body's "humors" was a bad idea. Substantial developments in medical science over the past hundred years have put the idea of vitalism in the dustbin of medical ideas. Naturopathic principles are, at their core, based around this profoundly unscientific and incorrect idea of health.

http://www.skepticnorth.com/2009/11/mag ... oised.html
~ The mystery of love is greater than the mystery of death ~

User avatar
Dark Waters
Level 13
Level 13
Posts: 376
Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2007 12:29 pm
Location: Orange County, CA
Zodiac: Virgo
Contact:

Re: Magician Prescriptions In Canada - A Skeptics View

Post by Dark Waters » Mon Nov 16, 2009 11:00 pm

Just from the quote I can see where the writer may have gotten the opinion, the "Magic Show" magician described seems a little charlatanesque.

My opinion is that, yes there energy fields within people and they can be manipulated by a knowledgable practitioner. I use a very rough, unskilled version of this when giving massages where I push energy into a person's back to give warmth and get at the deep knots. However, giving empty bottle "remedies" or just whipping out a prescription pad with no idea of their qualifications is rather odd.

I think a responsible practitioner would refer the patient to a more conventional doctor if they feel that chemical medicines are necessary.
I'm living in the Shadows and the Night,
Wrapped in warm darkness, safe and sure.
My Path shines by the Moon's fragile light,
It frees my Mind and keeps my Heart pure.

User avatar
Ragnar
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 2820
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2005 12:26 pm
Location: Preußen (Deutschland).
Contact:

Re: Magician Prescriptions In Canada - A Skeptics View

Post by Ragnar » Tue Nov 17, 2009 8:25 am

"Vitalism", is that something similar to what Messmer was working with?

User avatar
Hytegia
Level 12
Level 12
Posts: 359
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 4:52 am
Zodiac: Libra
Contact:

Re: Magician Prescriptions In Canada - A Skeptics View

Post by Hytegia » Tue Nov 17, 2009 8:58 am

It reminds me of a funny quote-

"There's a saying amongst Witches:
'Go to the Doctor before the Witch Doctor.'"

:D
I think it's 100% appropriate for the situation at hand.
"Water, water, everywhere,
And all the boards did shrink;
Water, water, everywhere,
Nor any drop to drink."

User avatar
Kystar
Level 57
Level 57
Posts: 1684
Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 7:46 am
Location: White Oak, PA
Zodiac: Cancer
Contact:

Re: Magician Prescriptions In Canada - A Skeptics View

Post by Kystar » Tue Nov 17, 2009 10:25 am

Frankly, I get annoyed when people bash "alternative" medicine...claiming science is the only way to look at things.

After all, if it wasn't FOR Herbal Medicine and Shaman-healing-medicine men/women's knowledge we wouldn't HAVE modern pharmaceuticals! Some curious person wanted to know WHAT compound in Willow bark relieved pain...so they figured it out and made aspirin.

It's a pet peeve of mine that people dismiss what worked for who knows how long as "Quack" medicine.

Now, energy healing isn't as obvious as herbals, but still...dismissing everything that isn't a "doctor's man-made prescription" is foolish.
You say "Witch" like it's a bad thing!

User avatar
Crazy Healer Lady
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 3589
Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2005 6:31 pm
Location: Mission, BC
Zodiac: Libra
Contact:

Re: Magician Prescriptions In Canada - A Skeptics View

Post by Crazy Healer Lady » Tue Nov 17, 2009 12:17 pm

I'm with you, Kystar.

And it's pretty clear when you have a wave of medical doctors going in for Naturopathy degrees that SOMETHING is working.
Crazy Healer Lady
Health and happiness to you!

The purpose of a relationship is not to have another who might complete you, but to have another with whom you might share your completeness. -CWG

User avatar
Ragnar
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 2820
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2005 12:26 pm
Location: Preußen (Deutschland).
Contact:

Re: Magician Prescriptions In Canada - A Skeptics View

Post by Ragnar » Wed Nov 18, 2009 12:57 am

I always think that even if it does not work scientifically, i.e no provable effects, does it matter, IF it works psychologicaly?

O.K, if someone actualy HAS a physical problem, such as a trapped nerve, they need a doctor. BUT if someone gives them a spoonfull of talcum powder to swaölllow, and tells them it is "a magic potion that gets rid of the pain until the doctor can fix the nerve", and it actualy DOES make the person think the pain is improved, or even gone, who bloody CARES if it is only talcum powder in lemonade?

That IS what "magic" is all about.

Ask Granny Weatherwax.

User avatar
Kystar
Level 57
Level 57
Posts: 1684
Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 7:46 am
Location: White Oak, PA
Zodiac: Cancer
Contact:

Re: Magician Prescriptions In Canada - A Skeptics View

Post by Kystar » Wed Nov 18, 2009 8:12 am

When I was a kid and getting therapy after my parent's divorce, I had a therapist tell me to suck on ice cubes when I was anxious, because it has been proven to calm the mind.

Now, some might argue that children respond positively to the concept of sucking on anything because of infant memories, but I think, now, it was more about distracting me from what was making me anxious than about "studies show this can calm you down".

The kicker is now I have a habit of sucking and chewing on ice...which every dentist I've ever been to shrieks about...except the oral surgeon who took out my wisdom teeth. "Ah, yes, that might contribute to why you have no cavities. It's like giving a dog a hard bone to chew for his plaque."

:lol: :lol:
You say "Witch" like it's a bad thing!

User avatar
Max
Level 11
Level 11
Posts: 305
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 3:15 am
Contact:

Re: Magician Prescriptions In Canada - A Skeptics View

Post by Max » Wed Nov 18, 2009 11:02 am

Psychological effects are extremely effective. It's scientifically proven.

A friend sent me this link:
http://www.wired.co.uk/wired-magazine/a ... solve.aspx

It's long, so to summarise: big pharmaceutical companies find that placebos (sugar pills that have no medicinal effect whatsoever) often work better than the prescription drugs. This was once seen as a problem, but now people are starting to think that placebos could be used to help people. The big companies are sharing information to see why placebos are so effective and what effect it may have on medicine in the future. Also signifcant is the colours they use: so red pills give you more energy, white calms you down etc.

The mind is a wonderful thing and we really should harness it during illness to help the body to heal itself. If we can do that through Naturopathy then so be it!
"I am not young enough to know everything." Oscar Wilde

User avatar
Ragnar
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 2820
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2005 12:26 pm
Location: Preußen (Deutschland).
Contact:

Re: Magician Prescriptions In Canada - A Skeptics View

Post by Ragnar » Wed Nov 18, 2009 11:41 pm

Kystar wrote:When I was a kid and getting therapy after my parent's divorce, I had a therapist tell me to suck on ice cubes when I was anxious, because it has been proven to calm the mind.
Instead of buying ALL sweets, I keep a couple of boxes of frozen Spinach packets (About 2cm X 1cm X 0,5cm) in the freezer to suck on. Also frozen carrot pieces.

Similar theory I guess.

User avatar
Hytegia
Level 12
Level 12
Posts: 359
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 4:52 am
Zodiac: Libra
Contact:

Re: Magician Prescriptions In Canada - A Skeptics View

Post by Hytegia » Thu Nov 19, 2009 7:00 am

The mind itself is capeable of bending the reality we live in - especially when it's within our own bodies! xD

For example is the Placebo effect. And any form of Exorcism. And Magick, as a whole!

And the fact that I've never gotten long streches of illness since I can remember... Besides that stent on Tuesday - which was the first time in a WHILE since I've been to a doctor for anything serious.

The only problem in it being an effective medicine is that the subject themselves must Believe it worked... Or anything Metaphysical you do for their benefit would be forefeit (like trying to run a car without gas). You need the mental status of the patient to be highly devoted to the fact that it will work for any change to take place!
"Water, water, everywhere,
And all the boards did shrink;
Water, water, everywhere,
Nor any drop to drink."

User avatar
Ragnar
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 2820
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2005 12:26 pm
Location: Preußen (Deutschland).
Contact:

Re: Magician Prescriptions In Canada - A Skeptics View

Post by Ragnar » Thu Nov 19, 2009 9:27 am

Hytegia wrote: And the fact that I've never gotten long streches of illness since I can remember... Besides that stent on Tuesday - which was the first time in a WHILE since I've been to a doctor for anything serious.
Well. Gout. So long as I keep a supply of tablets in, then I do not need to see the doctor. BUT, I do not know how the U.S, Canada, and Australia work, but here, unlike the U.K, you need a sick note from the doctor for the FIRST day off work.

My argument is, when I have a gout attack, it comes on at, say 15:00, at 15:15, I LITERALY need 15 to 20 minutes to get from my bed to the bathroom, and we only have a 60m² flat (!), so HOW am I expected to get to the doctors, one and a half Kilometers away? To get to the nearest bus that goes past the doctors, is FURTHER away than the doctors.

THEN the gout can be away at 18:00. I mean TOTALY away. So it is no use going to the doctors then. He just sais I can not see anything wrong, get to work you lazy bugger. (It can ALSO, as June to August 2005, last MONTHS at a time.)

Diabetes. I MUST go to the doctors, as we do not get our own testing kits here.

So I am a bit stuck.

Other than that, like yourself, I very rarely go near a doctor.

User avatar
white_harmony
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 831
Joined: Sun Apr 06, 2003 2:46 am
Location: Australia
Zodiac: Virgo
Contact:

Re: Magician Prescriptions In Canada - A Skeptics View

Post by white_harmony » Thu Nov 19, 2009 2:29 pm

Ragnar wrote:BUT, I do not know how the U.S, Canada, and Australia work, but here, unlike the U.K, you need a sick note from the doctor for the FIRST day off work.
After 2 days off sick here in Australia (and also depending on which industry you work in, but most follow this) you must have a doctors certificate for any other days that are needed off to recover.
... like yourself, I very rarely go near a doctor.
Like you both, I rarely go near a doctor. I'll get my moles checked (sun cancer being as bad as it is here), maybe go back in to get a new script for the cream I use on my psoriasis, but other than that ... If I can get better in the comfort of my own home with my own remedies, I'll stay away from the doctors office lol.
~ The mystery of love is greater than the mystery of death ~

User avatar
Kystar
Level 57
Level 57
Posts: 1684
Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 7:46 am
Location: White Oak, PA
Zodiac: Cancer
Contact:

Re: Magician Prescriptions In Canada - A Skeptics View

Post by Kystar » Thu Nov 19, 2009 4:39 pm

From my experience, the requirement for a doctor's excuse depends on the various company policies on absenteeism.

I've only worked temp jobs, really, so they more often then not don't care...except if you call off too much without doctor's scripts, you eventually stop getting called for work.
You say "Witch" like it's a bad thing!

User avatar
Ragnar
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 2820
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2005 12:26 pm
Location: Preußen (Deutschland).
Contact:

Re: Magician Prescriptions In Canada - A Skeptics View

Post by Ragnar » Fri Nov 20, 2009 2:30 am

Ahhh. The wonderful "temp jobs" or "agency work" in U.K, and "Zeitarbeit" in Germany.

The trouble is in Europe, you canm have a GREAT posting, unlimited in time (LOOONNNGGG contract), and be getting ll the praises the boss can heap on you without some falling off.

Then you ring in sick, send a sick note withing an hour or two, next day you INVARIABLY get a letter from the agency telling you that "Your place has been filled by some idiot that does not know his ass from his elbow, and we have no other places for you. You are sacked".

AND, in Europe, once sacked from an agency you will NEVER get back on their employment list! AND, now many smaller agencys are merging. So that CAN mean you will never get on the list of five or six companys at the same time, because NOW they are in all but name, the SAME company. :evil:

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest