Get a pentagram when you die does not mean they surrender.

Now here's something to get steamed up about.
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Get a pentagram when you die does not mean they surrender.

Post by Ragnar » Fri Feb 15, 2008 2:03 am

Since his last combat deployment in Iraq, Jeremy Hall has had a rough time, getting shoved and threatened by his fellow soldiers. The trouble started there when he would not pray in the mess hall.
"A senior ranking staff sergeant told me to leave and sit somewhere else because I refused to pray," Hall, a 23-year-old US army specialist, told AFP.
Later, Hall was confronted by a major for holding an authorized meeting of "atheists and freethinkers" on his base. The officer threatened to discipline him and block his re-enlistment.
"He said: 'You guys are being a problem and problems can be removed,'" Hall said. "He was yelling at us and stuff and at the very end he says, 'I really love you guys, I want you to see the light.'"
Now Hall is suing the major and Secretary of Defense Robert Gates, accusing them of breaching his constitutional rights. A campaign group, the Military Religious Freedom Foundation, is waiting for the Pentagon to respond to a lawsuit filed in a Kansas federal court on Hall's behalf.
It alleges a "pernicious pattern and practice" of infringement of religious liberties in the military.
The group's founder, former Air Force lawyer Mikey Weinstein, said he has documented 6,800 testimonies by military personnel -- nearly all of them Christians -- of sometimes punitive or humiliating attempts to make them accept a fundamentalist evangelical interpretation of Christianity.
"I am at war with those people who would create a fundamentalist Christian theocracy in the technologically most lethal organization ever created by our species, which is the United States armed forces," he said.
He plans to add extra charges and possibly other lawsuits this month.
"It violates title seven of the US code for an employer to push their Biblical world view on an employee," he said. "But it's a trillion times worse when that is not just your shift manager at Starbucks but that is your military superior."
He singles out one of the major Christian groups in the military, the Officers Christian Fellowship (OCF).
The group represents 15,000 US military personnel around the world, according to its director, retired Air Force general Bruce Fister.
"It is not the position of OCF to try and coerce people to believe what we believe," Fister told AFP.
OCF's aim, as stated on its website, is to achieve "a spiritually transformed military, with ambassadors for Christ in uniform, empowered by the Holy Spirit."
It professes belief in "the eternal blessedness of the saved; and the everlasting, conscious punishment of the lost."
Fister emphasized the group's work to support families of soldiers deployed in the "global war on terror."
"People make mistakes. There's probably been some instances where people have wrongly spoken," he added. "We'd like them not to, but that's life."
"Our checks within our equal opportunity channels identified fewer than 100 formal complaints over a two-year period," said Pentagon spokeswoman Eileen Lainez.
Army spokesman Paul Boyce told AFP: "The Army places a high value on the rights of its soldiers to observe tenets of their respective religious faiths."
The MRFF's constitutional complaint "is a matter of the courts system to address and resolve," he added.
"The joint standards of conduct for the Armed Forces and military equal opportunity policies address the freedom of religion, avoiding discrimination because of religion."
But Weinstein argued that most personnel are "too terrified" to speak out.
"When you actually fight against them, they make your life hell," said Hall, adding he has been passed over for promotion since launching his lawsuit. "I can't get a leg up no matter what I do."
A former military chaplain of a prestigious US military college reported being prevented from leading worship after disagreeing with the fundamentalist stance of other officials.
"I am not ready to say that if someone does not profess Christ as their savior that they are going to hell ... That got a lot of people angered," the minister told AFP, speaking on condition of anonymity for fear of retaliation against a spouse who is a senior officer.
"The leader of the youth group that ministered to the teens (at the academy) said that Catholics were not Christians and that Muslims hated Christians, and that created a lot of tension," the ex-chaplain added.
"As a soldier, many times you want to believe you're fighting on the right side. It's easy to kill someone if you believe that they're going to hell and that they are religiously opposed to you."
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id ... _article=1
Gee. And we trust them with nuclear weapons? #-o

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Post by Crazy Healer Lady » Fri Feb 15, 2008 10:09 pm

"As a soldier, many times you want to believe you're fighting on the right side. It's easy to kill someone if you believe that they're going to hell and that they are religiously opposed to you."
Oooooo

So it's not all for eventual democracy, oil, and the American way. It's a bloody religious war after all! Maybe not to the politicians (or maybe so), but to the people and the soldiers.

That is frightening.
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The purpose of a relationship is not to have another who might complete you, but to have another with whom you might share your completeness. -CWG

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Post by Windwalker » Mon Feb 18, 2008 2:03 am

What I don't get, right, is why the US is allowed nukes but no one else is allowed nukes. If they don't want other people to have them, they have to get rid of theirs. Stands to reason.

*sigh* WWI was a craptacular war, but at least when Christmas came around they gave one another their dead back and shared a few fags with the enemy. And discovered that they other side were actually good fullas after all, being in exactly the same position as they were, i.e., the insignificant pawns of leaders who really didn't give a crap.

An' then the next day they went back to shooting each other.

It reminds me of Crowley and Aziraphale. Having more in common with the enemy who is close at hand than the distant people on your side.

What was I saying? Was it "war sucks"? Probably.

I kept tellin' 'em, I said, you can't have a war when the other side is composed of terrorists! I told 'em, you know, war is when you line up with a whole lot of people in a different uniform on the other side, so's you know who to shoot, and then you run at each other and whoever kills the most people wins. It doesn't work when the other side can pop around the corner and be anybody at all! I told 'em, I said, you can't fight a guerilla force! Millennium hand and shrimp!

What I don't get, right, is that the other side keeps killing themselves, and the US is still not making any headway. They're doing your job for you!

I'm in the weirdest mood tonight.

Pernicious is the coolest word. Say it. Pernicious. Sounds like a word Lewis Carroll would have used.
si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes

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Post by Ragnar » Mon Feb 18, 2008 2:59 am

Windwalker wrote:What I don't get, right, is why the US is allowed nukes but no one else is allowed nukes.
See my post "Those very nice and EVER so modern Arab people".

Would you trust a country, or a people, that rioted, killing hundreds, and set fire to buildings all over the world over a few cartoons, to have nuclear weapons?

Remember, we are talking of people here who think NOTHING of strapping explosives onto kids, or the mentaly disturbed, and sending them into markets where they are blown up.


Rgardless of WHAT you think of Bush/Putin, neither are mad enough to do THAT. They may be irrational but not THAT irrational.

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Post by Crazy Healer Lady » Mon Feb 18, 2008 10:54 am

The concept of no one having nukes reminds me of one of the basics of Communism. No one should have the power, ideally, but first you have to wipe out those who have power, and you have to have power to do it first. Then, when it's only you, technically you should step down, right? Right, but there is the perpetual threat of someone building another party (or bomb), so it stands to reason you must stay in power.

So, really, whoever has the nukes has the power. When two opposing forces have the nukes, well, heh, we're kind of at mercy as a people.

Something to keep in mind this presidential race. Who do you want holding the nuclear gun?

(Gee, I'm starting to sound like Jim Gardener!)

Really, I am glad to be in a country which allows citizens to march and have a say, which also has nukes. I would be terrified to be in a country with a full-out dictatorship with nukes, or be in a world where only the crazies have them. Don't get me wrong: I am fully, 120% against nuclear war, nuclear power plants, and all things radiation except where it is being used to heal (i.e. cancer), but I'd rather be the one holding the nukes, get me? I do not believe, in any circumstance, that the USA will use them, but it will help make damn sure others won't use them, either.
Maybe it's just because I wasn't alive during the days of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. I could just be incredibly naieve.

When the world is healed, we can get rid of the nukes. And it's happening, one person at a time, maybe just in higher-capital countries and peaceful ones right now, but it's happening.
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Post by Scathach » Tue Feb 19, 2008 3:17 am

I agree with you totally. Nothing will be done to ameliorate the nuclear condition until we change fundamentally as human beings, due to the fact that pretending that power does not exist doesn't mean that power does not exist.

Unfortunately, changing the nature of human beings takes a lot longer than it takes to whip up a political movement. It's a delicate affair that is easier to set back than we may think......
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Post by Crazy Healer Lady » Tue Feb 19, 2008 10:25 am

I don't know if it's entirely a delicate affair. I think it's becoming more of a case of survival, and to those who have not delicately and easily changed, our butts will be kicked violently into a state of change.
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The purpose of a relationship is not to have another who might complete you, but to have another with whom you might share your completeness. -CWG

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Post by underlilith » Tue Feb 19, 2008 11:50 am

Crazy Healer Lady wrote:
"As a soldier, many times you want to believe you're fighting on the right side. It's easy to kill someone if you believe that they're going to hell and that they are religiously opposed to you."
Oooooo

So it's not all for eventual democracy, oil, and the American way. It's a bloody religious war after all! Maybe not to the politicians (or maybe so), but to the people and the soldiers.

That is frightening.
You mean you didn't know that!? 0_0 #-o

All that talk about democracy spreading is always a facade! Look between the lines.
"What is a god but a man who weilds the power of chaos?" - Peter Carroll

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Post by Willow » Fri Feb 22, 2008 6:32 am

Oy vey,
I loved my time in the military, but there wasa lot of black and white thinking that I found difficult.

I hate to bash the troops, but as a feminist vegetarian who was not a Christian it was quite annoying sometimes. I could never discuss politics or even world history because I refuse to say that someone or some people or some civilization is unilaterally "evel" there are alway a million other social factors going on.

Oh well, this is why I left and became a pacifist, I think academics suits me better.
Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
Dr. Seuss (1904 - 1991)

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Post by Arcanum Owl » Mon Feb 25, 2008 1:00 pm

Nuclear weapons, pfft. I recon the movie The Beach summed that up rather well. (no not one with Leonardo Dicaprico but the Gary Sweet one).

Also, some times you have to wonder. Personally I think the christian fundies can be more scary then the muslims. Christians just seem to have better press.
"Project what you are and what you feel, not what you think!" - quoted from yours trully.

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Post by Ragnar » Mon Feb 25, 2008 10:54 pm

Arcanum Owl wrote:Personally I think the christian fundies can be more scary then the muslims. Christians just seem to have better press.
And that's EXACTLY why they ARE scary.

Everything Hitler said about Jews wanting to take over the world, controling the press, courts and banks was b0ll0x, but if he had said christians, he would have been BANG on the button.

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Post by underlilith » Wed Feb 27, 2008 11:24 am

Ragnar wrote:
Arcanum Owl wrote:Personally I think the christian fundies can be more scary then the muslims. Christians just seem to have better press.
And that's EXACTLY why they ARE scary.

Everything Hitler said about Jews wanting to take over the world, controling the press, courts and banks was b0ll0x, but if he had said christians, he would have been BANG on the button.
I totally agree Ragnar.
"What is a god but a man who weilds the power of chaos?" - Peter Carroll

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