Unholy Orders: The Army Maneuvers Around Religious Liberty

Now here's something to get steamed up about.
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SageWolf
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Post by SageWolf » Fri Feb 23, 2007 9:01 am

hmmm True but there is 1 point, most pagans wiccians and heathens are solotary, and it's pretty hard, I understand if he really wanted to then he could have found someone to endorse him but to strip him completely of his rankings with a clean record just because he changed from christian to wiccian, thats too extreme, There are other ways of punishment, if that is even considered a punishment

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Post by Jescissa » Fri Feb 23, 2007 9:25 am

I don't think it was done as a punishment though, it was just bureaucracy. He was just stripped of being a chaplain because the group he converted from didn't endorse him any more.

It is an example of the mad bureaucracy and red tape that goes on in the world though. In any other situation it's likely that he would have been allowed to stay a chaplain but be a Wiccan too.

I do wonder about the fitness to be a chaplain of someone who has only practiced in that faith for a year though. I've been doing this nine years and I don't know whether I could be a chaplain for others. I've been asked to be High Priestess for my friends' handfasting, but that's just one day for just one event, it's not my day job. Perhaps he did approach a legal Wiccan group but they judged that he hadn't been Wiccan for long enough to lead other Wiccans?
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chaplins

Post by high-tech redneck » Fri Feb 23, 2007 10:10 am

the thing about being a chaplin and i have talked to a few about this type of thing , is that because they are "supposed to be knowledgable in differant faiths"that one of the things is if they do not know the answer to a question about a faith that they can guid the service member to a shipmate or to a community group in the area. i understand that yall dont think that a year is enough time to be a effective leader but i also se it as they're full time job so a year os good solid study and practice is alot to me.(even with all its flaws i love and cherish the military) but i honestly do not feel that the militery would have kept him as a chaplin even if he had a endorsment. i have never met or herd of a wiccan /pagan chaplin and i have been in the navy for 15+ years.
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Post by Jescissa » Fri Feb 23, 2007 10:56 am

high-tech redneck wrote:but i honestly do not feel that the militery would have kept him as a chaplin even if he had a endorsment.
That would be grounds to sue on the basis of discrimination though, if he had endorsement and they refused to recognise it, he could challenge it. As it stands I don't think he has a legal leg to stand on :-?

A year of study and practice isn't a long time though. I'm not being elitist, I just know that it took me a lot longer than a year to feel comfortable calling myself a witch, never mind being able to deal with other witches' faith. Obviously he has previous chaplain experience, which should definitely count for something, but I would have thought that he'd have to have the experience of being a civilian Wiccan, doing Wiccan rites and celebrating Wiccan holidays himself, before leading others through the same rites. One Beltane celebration at home doesn't mean you're ready to lead one for 100+ soldiers, especially if they've been doing it longer than you have.

(It looks like I'm really against this guy, but I'm not! I think the military would be better off if he was allowed back as a Wiccan chaplain, we need a precedent to get more Wiccan chaplains accepted into the service!)
"If you trust in yourself and believe in your dreams and follow your star...you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy. Goodbye." - Miss Tick, Terry Pratchett's Wee Free Men

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wow learned somthing new

Post by high-tech redneck » Sat Feb 24, 2007 12:30 am

Witchcraft was recognized by the United States in 1975. At that time, the U.S.Army added a synopsis of the religion to their Chaplains Handbook.

cool did not know this.

the following link is to a exerp from the army chapli's handbook.just thought yall might like to see.
http://paganspath.com/usarmy.htm
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Post by Ragnar » Sat Feb 24, 2007 12:32 am

Jescissa wrote:There is no single international pagan group, but there are local covens and local groups that could have endorsed him.
Well in my group, you have to be in two years before you even get on the first rung. To be reccomended as Godhi takes about ten years, and that is to work within the group. So basically you are "supervised".

To go on to "diplomatic corps", ( :lol: ), between 10 and 20 years.

Now if some one came aboard my ship, and said "I am the Pagan chaplain" and he/she then told me they had been in the religion two months, or even two years, but had "been approved by The temple of the order of the stick insect, 27th portal (behind Tesco, and over the road from Wooly's), and had made 92nd degree and had the scars to prove it", I would throw them over board.

HTR. I like it, but a problem is immediately apparent;
OTHER NAMES BY WHICH KNOWN:
Witchcraft; Goddess worshipers; Neo-Paganism, Paganism, Norse (or any other ethnic designation) Earth Religion, Old Religion, Druidism, Shamanism.
Note: All of these groups have some basic similarities and many surface differences of expression with Wicca.
NO. We are TOTALY different in character to Wiccans. It is like comparing muslim and catholic. And we deffinately OBJECT to being called witches.

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Post by Jescissa » Sat Feb 24, 2007 1:12 am

Ragnar wrote:NO. We are TOTALY different in character to Wiccans. It is like comparing muslim and catholic. And we deffinately OBJECT to being called witches.
100% agree with you. I wouldn't be offended if someone called me a Heathen, but I would be extremely baffled if they did! :lol:
Ragnar wrote:Well in my group, you have to be in two years before you even get on the first rung.
That leads nicely into my second point (and the point you made.) Feeling slightly Jewish doesn't make you a Rabbi and being a Wiccan for a year doesn't qualify you to lead rituals for others.

From this report it looks like a) he didn't bother to approach a Wiccan group for endorsement because b) he knew he hadn't been doing it long enough for any group to find him 'Wiccan enough' to be a Wiccan chaplain.

Plus, and this is just my cynical side now, has no one considered the possibility that he might have converted to Wicca to report back to his old church on Wiccan practices?

Thanks for the link High-Tech! That was interesting!
"If you trust in yourself and believe in your dreams and follow your star...you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy. Goodbye." - Miss Tick, Terry Pratchett's Wee Free Men

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Post by Ragnar » Sat Feb 24, 2007 1:52 am

Jescissa wrote: Plus, and this is just my cynical side now, has no one considered the possibility that he might have converted to Wicca to report back to his old church on Wiccan practices?
Not cynical if it happens. And it does all the time. You can read all there posts in the files here.

They NORMALLY go something similar to;
"I am a poor confussed christian who is very secure in my ways. I am not here to convert any body, just to ask a few questions about Paganism. Because I can not be bothered reading all those back posts. Lets not flame each other. I am not here to cause trouble (OH BLOODY REALLY?), just to learn. I don't want to answer any questions on my beliefs, because that just leads to a slanging match."
They allways start when the first assignments are handed out at "fundy college". They send them here to "be tested", last two weeks they get a "D", Eight weeks gets them an "A".

All the time "What you say WILL be written down in pencil, rubbed out, altered a further six times, taken COMPLETELY out of context, cut and pasted till it sais what WE want, THEN it will be used in evidence against you. You have NO right to a solicitor, OR to a telephone call".

NEVER trust a christian that sais "I am just curious what all this Pagan stuff is about". Bollocks! They are allready piling the wood in the town square as they write it.

PLEASE NOTE. THIS IS IN NO WAY MEANT TO REPRESENT, OR REFER TO ANY PERSON ALIVE OR DEAD, IMAGINARY, OR REAL, WHO MAY, OR MAY NOT, BE WRITTING ON VARIOUS THREADS ON THESE BOARDS AT THE PRESENT MOMENT! THANK YOU. :smt064 :smt083 :laughing6:
Last edited by Ragnar on Tue Feb 27, 2007 1:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Windwalker » Mon Feb 26, 2007 12:19 am

Ragnar wrote:
PLEASE NOTE. THIS IS IN NO WAY MEANT TO REPRESENT, OR REFER TO ANY PERSON ALIVE OR DEAD, IMAGINARY, OR REAL, WHO MAY, OR MAY NOT, BE WRITTING ON VARIOUS THREADS ON THESE BOARDS AT THE PRESENT MOMENT! THANK YOU. :smt064 :smt083 :laughing6:

LMAO :lol: =D> :lol:

The way I see this case, freedom of religion means he can believe what he wants, not that he can officiate in any way in that religion. I mean, I've been a wiccan-influenced pagan for six and a half years and I still don't think I've earned the title "witch". (Nearly, but not quite.)
ragnar wrote: We are TOTALY different in character to Wiccans. It is like comparing muslim and catholic. And we deffinately OBJECT to being called witches.
Agreed! Personally, I like much of what I've read of the nordic traditions - to the extent that I briefly considered converting officially, before deciding that it would be better for me to just incorporate what I found useful. (Restrictions and I don't work well together.) Some of the concepts resonate well with me (wyrd in particular is the take on fate I have always believed in, but never been able to articulate... it was so good to discover it properly :lol: ) and I find the Havamal of more merit to me than the Rede. Nevertheless, I would give anyone calling me a Heathen a very strange look. Let alone calling a Heathen a Wiccan or vice versa! It's like saying mercury and gold are the same thing just because they're both metals.
si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes

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Post by Ragnar » Mon Feb 26, 2007 1:25 am

Windwalker wrote: (Restrictions and I don't work well together.)
I "follow instructions implicitly, and have a touching respect for authority"

THATS official, because my Colonel said so on my last report before coming out of the army. :smt045

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Post by Windwalker » Mon Feb 26, 2007 2:04 am

Ragnar wrote: I "follow instructions implicitly, and have a touching respect for authority"

THATS official, because my Colonel said so on my last report before coming out of the army. :smt045
Awww :-D
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Post by Ragnar » Mon Feb 26, 2007 3:30 am

And he wasn't the sarcastic type, at all! :roll:

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