"Revisionist"historian faces gaol

Now here's something to get steamed up about.
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Willow
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Post by Willow » Mon Feb 27, 2006 11:26 am

Religious courts...

Sharia, Jewish family law, Christian church family autonomy.

Essentially, People wanted to be able to settle family issues within their own tribunals with their own judges. Jews and Christians have been doing this for a while, whereas Muslims wanted too.

It seemed for a while that sharia was going to be allowed. The defense was that if a women was being unfairly treated by the religious court, she could just bring her problems to a civil court that would take precedence.

Problems with this argument:
1) What if the woman can't read or write and doesn't know she has this option
2) This does not take into account the community pressure the woman is under to abide by Sharia, if you were a new immigrant who barely spoke English and you knew that going to civil court would leave you excommunicated by the community and your family and you would likely lose your kids,would you do it?
3) The laws of the religious tribunals tread too easily on other areas such as abuse. Baptists in the states would encourage family counseling when the husband was being abusive, part of this counseling involved the woman acknowledging how the things she did made her husband angry and so she was at fault for at least some of the abuse.

Anyway, the premier of Ontario banned all these courts in Ontario. There are just too many risks and questions.
Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
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Post by Kelreth » Mon Feb 27, 2006 12:37 pm

Aa yes....the your husband beats you because u did something wrong ideal that some groups hold....what fricking idiot made this?

i hope that the feminine divinty gains more power rapidly before humanity is eternally screwed
i am prone to free association. Basically whatever i think i type, so sorry if things get really erratic...

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Post by Willow » Mon Feb 27, 2006 1:59 pm

Well interestingly enough,

I read another paper a little while ago that said as paganism and Wicca become more institutionalized ( as is the way of all religions) we are likely follow all other religions with our power struggles and patriarchy will likely start popping up.

I am always skeptical about those who predict the future, however it was an interesting thought.
Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
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Post by Grumpy » Mon Feb 27, 2006 3:25 pm

Patriarchy? In Wicca? Not a chance. I have six spells to cause impotence and four to cause baldness. Bring it on.

(not that I'd use them of course, purely for research purposes....heh)


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Post by Kelreth » Mon Feb 27, 2006 5:47 pm

patriarchy and matriarchy....neither are full proof, but matriarchy is better

and almost anything is better than dogma
i am prone to free association. Basically whatever i think i type, so sorry if things get really erratic...

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Post by scoia » Mon Feb 27, 2006 5:50 pm

Kelreth wrote:matriarchy is better
*coffMargaretThatchercoff*
Kelreth wrote: and almost anything is better than dogma
I heartily agree.

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Post by forgotten oceans » Mon Feb 27, 2006 11:56 pm

WOW!! Thanks Ragnar! Good thing I gave him the number to my electric company instead! :-D

Most wiccans can't even agree on one name for themselves, how are they suppose to decide on more important stuff like politics? No offense to any wiccans, but I've seen clouds smaller then the umbrella for wicca.

Who is Margaret Thatcher? And why does it sound familiar?

Grumpy, none of us intend to use the large section of curses in our BoS, but none of us want to be caught with out it either. heheh :lol:

About dogma, fiery lakes do exist, it's called the Earth's core, we learn that in 4th grade science. :-D
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Post by Rain ForestMoon » Tue Feb 28, 2006 1:18 am

forgotten oceans wrote: Who is Margaret Thatcher? And why does it sound familiar?
otherwise known as "That Dreadful Woman".

Google has more than 4 million entries on her, probably none of the flattering......


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Post by Ragnar » Tue Feb 28, 2006 1:22 am

The same thing happened to my ex wifes cousin.

It also happens when the woman is middle Eastern. There was a recent case in Germany where a woman was forced into one of these arranged marraige things and dragged off to turkey.

She escaped and came back here. But her three brothers found out where she was and killed her for discrassing the family. The case is still ongoing.

That was bad enough, but Die Zeit, a National news paper, and a T.V company did a survey of around 20,000 Turkish school students, who were the same ages as the brothers (18 > 20). 90% of them said they would do the same, and the brothers shouold be let off, because they were only following Turkish tradition and custom. 99% considered it a direct attack on thier muslim belief and culture, that the brothers had been arrested at all.

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Post by Rain ForestMoon » Tue Feb 28, 2006 1:36 am

Ragnar wrote:The same thing happened to my ex wifes cousin.

It also happens when the woman is middle Eastern. There was a recent case in Germany where a woman was forced into one of these arranged marraige things and dragged off to turkey.

She escaped and came back here. But her three brothers found out where she was and killed her for discrassing the family. The case is still ongoing.

That was bad enough, but Die Zeit, a National news paper, and a T.V company did a survey of around 20,000 Turkish school students, who were the same ages as the brothers (18 > 20). 90% of them said they would do the same, and the brothers shouold be let off, because they were only following Turkish tradition and custom. 99% considered it a direct attack on thier muslim belief and culture, that the brothers had been arrested at all.
It would be interesting to know how much of this is ethnic cultuire (Turkish, in this case) and how much of it is due to Islam. It might even be impossible to know, because there would have been a lot of cross-fertilisation over the centuries.

At times like these I always remember the word of a Hindu man, who told me this:

Christianity is a superstition, but a relatively harmess one.
Islam is also a superstition, but a very harmful one.

(This should probably be viewed in the light of the bad experiences Hindus have had with Muslims over the last millenium or so).

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Post by Ragnar » Tue Feb 28, 2006 1:50 am

Rain ForestMoon wrote: It would be interesting to know how much of this is ethnic cultuire (Turkish, in this case) and how much of it is due to Islam. It might even be impossible to know, because there would have been a lot of cross-fertilisation over the centuries.
I would agree to some extent. But conclussions can be drawn. For example;

Turkey has a constitution that specificaly forbids aranged marraige

Sharia demands it.

Murder is as against the law in Turkey, for whatever reasaon, as it is in U.S, Canada, Germany etc.

Sharia is FULL of being able to kill for this and stone for that.

The "honour killings" are seen as justified in all muslim lands.

Most non muslim lands had never even HEARD of them, before we were told.

These are a few example of the top of my head. But my conclussion is, that it is muslim belief, and not Turkish culture that is to blame.

In Egypt, Arabia etc, the religion is indestinguishable from the "culture". As it is in ANY country that accepts sharia law. Turkey does not.

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Post by Ragnar » Tue Feb 28, 2006 2:04 am

forgotten oceans wrote: Who is Margaret Thatcher? And why does it sound familiar?
The only woman in British history garunteed to drive sane people into screaming, raging, purple faced, smashing fist through concrete bunker rage.

The MOST hated woman in U.K history.

The first, and hopefully ONLY Prime minister in U.K history.

Now I am going away so as not to start smashing the computer against the wall at the mere thought of the cow. :evil:

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Post by forgotten oceans » Tue Feb 28, 2006 2:57 am

She cut free milk?!? O__o I'm not catholic or anything, but isn't it rude to refuse a priest his title? 3 billion unemployed?!? I still don't quite get the poll tax thing. Sorry, typing as I'm reading it. I can see how ppl could despise her, but would like better examples as I am not old enough or British so I don't really get the full impact. If it makes all the folks in the UK feel any better, the Iron-Lady is mentioned in American world history text books, I thought she sounded familiar.

As for the Sharia laws, this is the first I've ever heard of them. But we don't have many muslims in Tx, except the ones working at Exxon. The guy I mentioned earlier was the first I'd ever met. It's hard to believe that there could be a religion worse then catholics.
Maybe now you're starting to understand that while I may have been born predispositioned to be pretty batty, my parents saw to it that it was a certainty and completely unavoidable. -Me

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Post by Ragnar » Tue Feb 28, 2006 3:21 am

Job agencys, (temp working), whilst not invented by the cow, were made into one of the major employment systems in U.K, NOW Germany.

They can demand you be ready to go and work ANY WHERE in the country at an hours notice. They can sack you without notice.

Basically you work all the hours there are, doing the crapest jobs, for the minimum pay. THEN she turns round and says she cured unemployment.

Due to the “Social security” system in U.K. and Germany (both countries where I have experience), I must “take any job offered”. Regardless of where, when, or amount of pay!

That is slavery.

I work in a factory with a twenty four shift system, seven days on two off. The pay is crap, but… na ja, more of that later. The main problem is the bosses idea that “you can do what you want in your free time”. Really? First, I have a two hour train journey to and from work. Make that now a twelve hour day.

For early shift I have to get the train at 03:00hrs, therefore I have to be in bed for nine>ten O’clock. During the day I have one ten minute and one twenty minute break, unpaid. The canteen is at least a fifteen minute walk, right at the other end of the factory. Hence, a break sitting at the machine.
Late shift finishes at 21:00, home for 23:00. A shower, something to eat, bed. Night shift 23:00>05:00.

Now, I would ask the boss, “what free time”? If I don’t have any sleep, or have a few beers, smoke a joint, and turn up the next day unable to do my job, we soon see what is meant by “free time”. I have to fit shopping, laundry e.t.c. into this as well.

O.K. many people have to do this, it does not make it right.

With such working conditions as I have described, how can I join a hobby club? All those I know are normally on a Tuesday, or something, at 18:00. Combat flower arranging, full contact origami, any “learning” courses, are out. What is the use when I can only turn up on my day Off, which itself changes from week to week? The same goes for any kind of social club. To turn up once a month, or less, doesn’t even give you time to get to know any one well enough to propose you!
Restrictive practices on free time pursuits.

That is slavery.

Because most jobs, now, are “agency” (Zeitarbeit, in German), I am earning €3,50 per hour. I do not know the exchange, but, I am working next to permanent workers, doing exactly the same job, who are earning €15>20!

Why? Because the agency are charging the “host” firm €20>30 per hour for “supplying” them with a worker. Naturally they want their cut, so I get 3,50. This type of work is, throughout the “Western” world, normal now.
A major problem with this, is that the “host firm, paying €20>30 per hour, expect that much work out of the agency workers. A favourite phrase of bosses here is “zack, zack!” (meaning “quick, quick!”). I tell you what pal, for €3.50 per hour your “zacks” are severely limited! (to say nothing of life expectancy). What was that about Paying peanuts and getting monkeys?

People profiting from the labour of others? (as opposed to profiting from the product of the labour).

That is slavery.

And ALL thanks to the Thatcher cow. I have not spoken of the "enforced savings", or "The police and criminal evidence act", or the cutting back of doctors to such an extent that 50 > 60 hour shifts are "normal" in U.K hospitals for emergency doctors. THATS NOT PER WEEK, THAT IS PER SHIFT.

I bloody HATE Thatcher.

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Post by forgotten oceans » Tue Feb 28, 2006 4:48 am

O__o Wow!! Wikapedia doesn't do her justice! I wasn't aware of all that, thanks for the better explanation. On a side note, don't you feel better for venting a little? ;) Also you will be pleased to know that she made number 3 on the 100 worst British ppl list. :-D
Maybe now you're starting to understand that while I may have been born predispositioned to be pretty batty, my parents saw to it that it was a certainty and completely unavoidable. -Me

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