Galloway Grills Senate and US Hypocrisy on Iraq

Now here's something to get steamed up about.
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scoia
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Post by scoia » Sun May 29, 2005 9:01 pm

I agree with the bush bashing, but in regards to the European Contitution, I actually think the French voters acted in the best interests of their people. The idea of a European Constitution does have it's valuable points, but opening up the entirety of the EU to free trade agreements is not particularly responsible.

The effect on the wage standards and import/export costs could be hideous for some countries.

The consitution proposed was NOT only an ideal, it's practical effects on the countries in the EU were not highlighted enough. Personally, I don't feel that pushing towards globalisation will assist in this instance. They should have left the trade deals for a later time.
First they ignore you.
Then they laught at you.
Then they fight you.
Then you win.
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I haven't read Michael Moore, but I like his films...

Post by dragonflydrummer » Sun May 29, 2005 10:45 pm

Interesting. I had heard the French were likely to vote "non," but I hadn't heard that it happened. So what course now for an EU Constitution? Will they go back and re-write something more likely to please the French or is it dead for the time being? :-k

I'm not a big fan of Free Trade. It tends to feed the sharks...
The spirit abides immovable; it beholds the infernal monsters swarm down upon it, and does not fear. (Eliphas Levi -- The Sixth Hour)

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Post by Ragnar » Sun May 29, 2005 11:51 pm

Scoia, as far as wage problems go, I am writing from a country where a majority of work available is "agency" work at 3.50 Euro per hour. Where you are working next to someone doing EXACTLY the same job who is getting 20>30 Euro. I have worked in factorys here where the fire safety signs are written in Turkish, Polish, Russian andthen German. This was before Poland became E.U. The others still are not. The constitution would have stopped this "wage dumping" as the politicians call it.
Dragonflydrummer, Yes and no, most commentators say it is dead, but there is a rule that sais if 80% of the countries vote "yes", then it can be pushed through without the desenters. As to a re-write, it took 20 years for this one to evolve. It is also about much more than free trade.
Another thing I am rather curious about is the media insistance that it was a "massive", or "overwhelming" vote against. Now, when I was at school a 5>6% majority hardly justified the hysterical descriptions of "massive" and "overwhelming". In fact on a yes no question 5>6% majority is only a win by the skin of the teeth!

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the "overwhelming" 6%

Post by dragonflydrummer » Mon May 30, 2005 7:33 am

Ragnar said:
Another thing I am rather curious about is the media insistance that it was a "massive", or "overwhelming" vote against. Now, when I was at school a 5>6% majority hardly justified the hysterical descriptions of "massive" and "overwhelming".
Yeah Ragnar, the media does that kind of exaggeration here too. Unfortunately, that type of reporting is becoming a standard thing. Obviously, they have a stake in the outcome and reinforce it with a little "spin."
:-(

Interesting to hear about the "wage dumping" with the agency workers there. Here they call those workers "Temporaries" -- but they're just as screwed.
The spirit abides immovable; it beholds the infernal monsters swarm down upon it, and does not fear. (Eliphas Levi -- The Sixth Hour)

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Post by Librarian » Mon May 30, 2005 12:49 pm

I read in a review of the vote, that a re-vote is possible if there are serious problems with any country's voting procedures.

I don't believe this qualifies, though.

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Post by Ragnar » Mon May 30, 2005 6:46 pm

In theory it needs five countrys to say "no", to totaly wreck the thing. It would not be the first time. Denmark and Sweden were both asked to vote on the Maastricht treaty three or four times, until the Governments got the answer they were first thinking of. Both countrys said "no" with a majority of 6>7%, but that was declared to be to small a majority. However, as soon as they voted "yes" it was accepted, even though the majority was only 3>4%!!!

I just know what the press will do if Holland votes "yes" with a, say, 8% majority, the news will be full of "How close this vote was", and "the "yes" vote only got through by the skin of its teeth". 5% in France is "Giant", in Holland...Ha!
Also they are talking about renegotiating the treaty, or "constitution", but that means the Eastern countrys, Poland, Lithuania etc, may be able to push through the rule they wanted making christianity, the "official" E.U. religion. They only lost it last time by five votes![/i]

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Post by scoia » Tue May 31, 2005 5:05 pm

I though that all 25 (?) countries had to vote yes for the constitution to be put in place? It is possible to have another referendum in France, but it's not been made clear under what conditions they can do so.

I appreciate your point on wages, Ragnar (very well actually, I'm a casual worker myself) but will the free trade agreements and EU constitution change this at all, or widen the gap?
First they ignore you.
Then they laught at you.
Then they fight you.
Then you win.
--Ghandi

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Post by dragonflydrummer » Tue May 31, 2005 10:18 pm

Ragnar said:
...they are talking about renegotiating the treaty, or "constitution", but that means the Eastern countrys, Poland, Lithuania etc, may be able to push through the rule they wanted making christianity, the "official" E.U. religion. They only lost it last time by five votes!
What would that mean for people who weren't xtian in Europe, if xtianity became the 'official' religion? Would that mean only their holidays would be observed, or would there be a deeper impact?

[-o< [-o< [-o< [-o< :roll: [-o< [-o<
The spirit abides immovable; it beholds the infernal monsters swarm down upon it, and does not fear. (Eliphas Levi -- The Sixth Hour)

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Post by Ragnar » Wed Jun 01, 2005 12:12 am

1; Yes Scoia, it is 25 countrys. As with everything on Europe we keep getting told different things. Basically all newspapers, bieng the dross of life they are, are anti E.U. so only report things they feel will suport thier view, i.e things that will make the E.U. look bad. This is particularly so with the British press and media. One of these is this "fact" they keep repeating, that without all 25 voting "yes" then the thing is dead. BUT what they will NOT report,or ignore whenever it is mentioned, is rule 4 part???
This states it only requires 80% of the countries to vote "yes" to get it passed.
As to free trade, I do not know what difference there would be from now. We are allready flooded by inferior Chinese rubbish, job markets are allready flooded by non E.U citizens. But if, as rumoured, it would equalise pay throughout the E.U. Then, at least it would stop Poles, amd other East block workers bieng able to undercut the workers in higher payed countries.
2; Dragon fly Drummer. I do not know exactly what the effect would be. The trouble is the countries that want to push this through are all the Eastern orthodox type. They are also ex Communist. As far as they are concerned nothing existed before christanity came along, then the communists, now they are christian again. ANYTHING that is not christian is "devil worship". I assume that they would insist on church overview of parliamentary workings, people needing to be questioned about thier christian beliefs before bieng allowed to stand for official positions etc. Just like the K.G.B actualy. Also the repeal of the human rights rule that sais parents can withdraw thier children from religious education. Things like that. There are some orthodox types that want Paganism banned, along with horoscopes, runes, Tarot etc.

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Post by dragonflydrummer » Fri Jun 03, 2005 7:22 pm

Ragnar said:
I do not know exactly what the effect would be. The trouble is the countries that want to push this through are all the Eastern orthodox type. They are also ex Communist. As far as they are concerned nothing existed before christanity came along, then the communists, now they are christian again. ANYTHING that is not christian is "devil worship". I assume that they would insist on church overview of parliamentary workings, people needing to be questioned about thier christian beliefs before bieng allowed to stand for official positions etc. Just like the K.G.B actualy. Also the repeal of the human rights rule that sais parents can withdraw thier children from religious education. Things like that. There are some orthodox types that want Paganism banned, along with horoscopes, runes, Tarot etc.
Great. I thought the US was the only country hell-bent on bringing back the Dark-Ages. This potential line of power-play as you describe it is very scarey indeed. I think the Fundamentalist movements in the US run a close parallel in their intent, but behind it all, seem like they are a bit more cynical. Just another reason why Paganism is a torchlight in the darkness...
:axe:
The spirit abides immovable; it beholds the infernal monsters swarm down upon it, and does not fear. (Eliphas Levi -- The Sixth Hour)

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Post by Ragnar » Sun Jun 05, 2005 3:57 am

Aye,
it makes you wonder what the "G8" is really talking about in their secret little conclaves, and they're only the meetings we are told about.

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Post by Ragnar » Sun Jun 05, 2005 8:01 am

I am sorry to write two in a row but this I could not resist.
Remember I said;

I just know what the press will do if Holland votes "yes" with a, say, 8% majority, the news will be full of "How close this vote was", and "the "yes" vote only got through by the skin of its teeth". 5% in France is "Giant", in Holland...Ha!

Well it wasn’t Holland, but we have just heard the results of a Swiss referendum on signing up to various E.U. treaties.
The BBC report that;
“55% voted “yes”, the very small majority showed how disillusioned the Swiss really are with the idea” (???!!!)
55% in France is a massive majority, but 55% in Switzerland is a miniscule majority?
Who’s bias now?
When we start calling the press to court I am first in line to be the judge. I will show exactly the same lack of bias as the press do!

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(and no, I'm not following you around on purpose...)

Post by dragonflydrummer » Sun Jun 05, 2005 8:32 am

Madame LaFarge said:
"Off with their heads! Off with their heads!"
Yes Ragnar, I did notice the discrepancy in the reporting.

:axe: :axe: :axe:
The spirit abides immovable; it beholds the infernal monsters swarm down upon it, and does not fear. (Eliphas Levi -- The Sixth Hour)

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