Red Hot Discussion Topic

Now here's something to get steamed up about.

Should the Pagan community start placing informational ads?

Yes
3
33%
No
5
56%
Undecided
1
11%
 
Total votes: 9

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socialgreen
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Post by socialgreen » Sat Dec 04, 2004 5:32 am

Stormy Wrote:
Social, about the Bible saying that God hates witchcraft - something that very few know is that in the literal translation (yup, a LOT is lost in the translations of the Bible) a "witch" is actually a woman who uses curses to harm others, and, if I recall correctly (it's been a while since I've read the text which explained the many translation flub ups), uses poisons. And that is what "witchcraft" translates to as well - making poisons and cursing to harm others. So, as you can see, the fundies have it all wrong again - God "will not suffer a poisoner who curses others to live", he doesn't have any problem with witches.
Yes, I am aware that it speaks of women but G.O.D. does have a problem when it comes to people worshiping other Gods and Goddesses. Why do you think whole cites were laid waste and every inhabitant killed because G.O.D. said to do it because they were "unclean and followers of unclean gods." I believe I already mentioned the methods used. The Fundies will always equate the poisonings and curses as a result of witches because it says so in the KJV. That is the mindset that they will not easily give up.
social
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Post by Stormy » Sat Dec 04, 2004 5:52 am

Ah, and again, Social, they have it wrong - the things you speak of, the genocidal wars, are from the OLD testament. Christians, ie Christ - ians, are supposed to follow the teachings of the NEW testament, Christ himself said that he came to "abolish the old law and bring the new". The old testament is a collection of JEWISH books, NOT Christian. Yet another reason why I was never able to "buy into" Christianity even when I was Christian - their whole "holy book" is contradictory and hypocritical.

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Post by socialgreen » Sat Dec 04, 2004 3:27 pm

What you have written Stormy is true, however, it is mindset that I am talking about. The mindset that brought the inquisition and crusades. I been around them for a long time to know what Fundies believe. We both know that they are way off base in teaching but it would be easier pulling teeth from a raging bull than to change their mindset.
social
If more of us valued food and cheer and song
above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world.
-- J. R. R. Tolkien

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Post by socialgreen » Sun Dec 05, 2004 2:04 pm

By the way, how did we get off topic? Nevermind. The idea of flyers is a good idea Stormy but I believe these flyers should educate other pagans to what is going on. Even pagans can be apathetic to politics and they need this information. Another thing to consider is building a coalition among the pagan community. It would be good to watch each others back in case the political landscape sours more and more of our freedoms are lost. Of course, I hope it does not happen.
social
If more of us valued food and cheer and song
above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world.
-- J. R. R. Tolkien

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Post by Aero2600 » Mon Dec 06, 2004 2:35 am

Lotus wrote:Umm, you sure about this one. The vast majority of pagans/wiccans have the problem of being hedonistic. In fact, many people use their paganism as an excuse to be so. Many pagans have the concept that they have to do what they need mentality.
It is the one of the biggest problems I have with the pagan community as a whole and why I dislike certain traditions like wicca. Wiccans seem to be the most hedonistic of them all trouting around spouting stuff about the great right and being a fertility religion. Its like a cheesy come on line: hey baby we worship a nature religion so let's beep!


I'm sorry, Lotus, but it really bothers me that you would paint with such a wide brush. According to Merriam-Webster online, 'Hedonism' is defined as "the doctrine that pleasure or happiness is the sole or chief good in life". Just because Wiccans believe that sex is a good thing to be enjoyed by people in love does not make them hedonistic. Most wiccans do not feel that sex outside of marriage is a bad thing, or that sex should only be used to reproduce. As long as a willing couple is protecting themselves from STDs, practicing some form of birth control, are of legal age, and aren't offending anyone, there's no reason why they shouldn't consider themselves free to have sex if the choose. They are not hurting anyone. I, personally, have never heard anyone using the Great Rite as an excuse to have sex, and cannot think of anyone that would perform the Great Rite with someone other than their life partner. The few people that you have met acting in this way.. are not Wiccan. These people are likely confused about what love actually is, and likely have little or no morals. If you meet a person that claims to be a Wiccan and doesn't have strong personal morals, then something doesn't match up. Please don't stereotype all followers of Wicca as hedonistic. Let me give you a few examples.. There are many people out there that claim to be christian, but have no morals what-so-ever. Does this mean that I should consider all christians to have no morals at all? No, that would be wrong. There many christians out there are very good people with strong morals. Or an even better example: I drive a taxi. I deal with all sorts of people, everyday. Suppose I have three fares in a row that are rude, inconsiderate, young black men. Should I go ahead and just decide that all black men are rude and inconsiderate? No, that's not just stereotyping, that's racism. I believe people should give everyone they meet a clean slate to start off with, regardless of their skin color, gender, religion.. whatever. Let them prove themselves to be rude, hedonistic, or immoral.

I apologize for correcting you Lotus, and I'm sorry if the wiccans in your area are working to give the rest of us a bad name, but most wiccans are not like that. Most wiccans view the act of making love to be sacred. I believe that making love to someone can be the most incredible way of expressing your love for them. If it's done right. :o)

I apologize to everyone else for this being off-topic.. Uh, what was the topic again?

BB,
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Post by Lotus » Mon Dec 06, 2004 10:11 am

Aero2600 wrote: I apologize for correcting you Lotus, and I'm sorry if the wiccans in your area are working to give the rest of us a bad name, but most wiccans are not like that. Most wiccans view the act of making love to be sacred. I believe that making love to someone can be the most incredible way of expressing your love for them. If it's done right. :o)

BB,
Aero
No worries, Aero. Its all good. I should have worded my statement properly in a way that did not make a generalization about all wiccans.
About most wiccans not being about that well, that is unfortunately not what I have seen. With the exception of one or two the most I have seen are people using wicca as an excuse to get their freak on.
As you brought up in the beginning of your post sex is not dirty and the examples you gave are a healthy view of sex and sexuality. I agree.
The problem comes when *wicca* and *open sexuality* become excuses to use adults (or even children). When it becomes a tool of manipulation....you have to realize that teachers (of any category) have great power over their students. An example of what I mean by this is the current Michigan case where the teacher wed a 14 year old girl by using paganism as a tool to manipulate her. (this case is on going and the woman may not be guilty..just wanted to note that)

You are right about stereotyping and all should be judged upon there merits as a person not about what category they fit in.

BB
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Post by Aero2600 » Mon Dec 06, 2004 11:16 am

About most wiccans not being about that well, that is unfortunately not what I have seen. With the exception of one or two the most I have seen are people using wicca as an excuse to get their freak on.


Thank you for clarifying. But what about the rest of the wiccans here at The Pagan Library? Do you really believe they're using wicca as means to get sex? I'm sure I'm not the only one you offended.

The simple fact of the matter is that there are good people and bad people out there. Their religion doesn't matter. Really. Religion does not matter. That teacher using paganism to wed a 14 year old. How is that different than all the priests abusing altar boys? It isn't. As a friend of mine says, 'Whatever motivates you to do right."

(Paraphrasing from 'The Circle Within') "The idiots that start covens full of women, that run around the fire wearing nothing but a loin cloth, and hump women's legs like a crack-addled snauzer" are not wiccan. They aren't. Sex is a wonderful thing, but it can also be very harmful. Sex complicates relationships. It creates feelings where there were none previously. Anyone using sex as a toy without regards to the others feelings is being intentionally negligent. That's causing harm, and not something a wiccan would do. I'm not saying that wiccans never do harm. They do. But the wiccan rede, 'An it harm none, do what thou will', essentially means don't harm anyone if you can avoid it. Sometimes it's unavoidable, but usually a solution that doesn't harm anyone can be discovered if you think about it enough, and have the patience to follow through with it. The 'wiccans' you've met are harming people with their negligence. I'm sorry if they've hurt you and claim to be wiccan. To be honest with you, it sounds like you've had a personal run in with one of them, and I'm sorry for that. I can only tell you that they're the exception and not wiccan. Unfortunately, good men are hard to come by in this world.

BB,
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Post by Lotus » Mon Dec 06, 2004 12:17 pm

Aero2600 wrote:[
Thank you for clarifying. But what about the rest of the wiccans here at The Pagan Library? Do you really believe they're using wicca as means to get sex? I'm sure I'm not the only one you offended.
To remind you of something in my original statement: "If anyone on the board does not feel this way or was offended by this it is not a personal jab cause the people in my area who claim to be wiccan tend to be this way."
I feel that this statement is self evident.
After all most does not mean all. I said that most of the wiccans in my area fit this criterion of being users and abusers...I also noted that these people claim to be wiccan (regardless of if they are or not what the claim). And FYI, it is not *one* person hense, my use of most. As well, not exclusively male either.

BB
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Post by Aero2600 » Mon Dec 06, 2004 2:32 pm

Lotus wrote:To remind you of something in my original statement: "If anyone on the board does not feel this way or was offended by this it is not a personal jab cause the people in my area who claim to be wiccan tend to be this way."
I feel that this statement is self evident.


You're right, I apologize for not seeing your disclaimer, but you proceeded to verbally abuse Wicca, and then say 'Sorry if I offended anyone'.
Lotus wrote:The vast majority of pagans/wiccans have the problem of being hedonistic. In fact, many people use their paganism as an excuse to be so.


I'm sorry, but that's not saying you met a few bad apples. That's saying you believe that all wiccans are like this. That's like saying I believe all the Jews should have been burned back when the Nazi's had the chance, and then saying I'm sorry if that offended any Jewish people.

I'm sorry, but I believe's wrong to insult someone's religion and then say you hope no one was offended by your comments.

Maybe we should just let this go and get back on topic?

BB,
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Post by Lotus » Mon Dec 06, 2004 3:29 pm

"I'm sorry, but that's not saying you met a few bad apples. That's saying you believe that all wiccans are like this. That's like saying I believe all the Jews should have been burned back when the Nazi's had the chance, and then saying I'm sorry if that offended any Jewish people."
--end quote by Aero

No, I do not believe so. This is not what I am saying! :x

"I'm sorry, but I believe's wrong to insult someone's religion and then say you hope no one was offended by your comments."

I do not have to like people who use there religion as an excuse to get some or to be hedonistic....maybe there are a lot of people claiming to be wiccan and have no idea what wicca is really about.

BB
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Post by Stormy » Mon Dec 06, 2004 6:29 pm

I think it is safe to say that Lotus really didn't mean to offend with her statements, that, unfortunately there are many in her area that claim to be Wiccan and are only using that for selfish ends which has given a bad impression to her. She made some very valid points, even if they did sting.

And it is equally safe to say that Aero was, however, offended, is fortunate in knowing real Wiccan followers who do not give a bad rap to the name Wiccan and also made some equally valid points which felt like a stinging smack.

The big problem with a chat board is that we just can't see each other's expressions or hear each other's tone of voice, if we could, I doubt that things such as this would pinch us on the bottom ;)

So, how 'bout we all have a nice big :GHug: cause hugs make everything better - kinda like fresh out of the oven chocolate chip cookies :-D

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Post by morgana » Mon Dec 06, 2004 6:36 pm

Mmmm...I like chocolate chip cookies! :-D
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Post by FyreGarnet » Mon Dec 06, 2004 7:41 pm

Stormy is right. And I mentioned my life only to show to lotus that there are some good people out there, cuz I'm wiccan, and a virgin. Not because I think sex is dirty, I just really want it to be special, like Aero was saying.

Hope you all can understand that you were both trying to say something important, but it just didn't come out the way you had hoped.

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