Tell the Christian

Discussions of all things pagan and neo-pagan.
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Graver
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Post by Graver » Fri Feb 16, 2007 11:14 am

BotE:
My bad. I should have put a smiley there, so I can understand the confusion. :-?

Banjo:
I thought by "Holy Writ" you were referring to the Tanakh, in which the Nevi'im (including the book of Daniel) is included. An honest mistake, I'm sure you would agree.
What I did say was that absolute truth does not exist.
So, you're saying that something that I believe does exist doesn't, in fact, exist? Maybe if we look at this in a syllogistic manner, it might help you see it from my point of view:

1. I believe in absolute truth
2. (you claim that) absolute truth does not exist
3. Therefore, I believe in something that does not exist

I have a hard time taking "you believe in something that does not exist" to mean another other than "what you believe is wrong."

Ragnar:
Thank you for the clarification. That is, indeed, helpful.

Katsu:
I didn't bring up Daniel. Your fellow pagan did.

Kitsume:
It came from a joke that I made and has now been taken waaaaay out of context and has brought about all sorts of explanations. All this because I didn't add a smiley at the end of my sentence :)
Maybe not?

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Post by Kitsune » Fri Feb 16, 2007 11:28 am

So, you're saying that something that I believe does exist doesn't, in fact, exist? Maybe if we look at this in a syllogistic manner, it might help you see it from my point of view:

1. I believe in absolute truth
2. (you claim that) absolute truth does not exist
3. Therefore, I believe in something that does not exist

I have a hard time taking "you believe in something that does not exist" to mean another other than "what you believe is wrong."
Sorry, Graver but in this case, we're not saying you're wrong. We're saying we don't agree with you or think your right. Not the same thing. I don't think we can appolijize for this one. [-X

Generally in a case like this, the disagreement is stated, nobody takes offense and "Agree to Disagree" Law is invoked. [-o< :-D
Trying to create a world, even in words, is good occupational therapy for lunatics who think they're God, and an excellent argument for Polytheism. -S.M. Stirling

http://www.bamatthews.comThe Writings and Musings of B.A. Matthews

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Graver
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Post by Graver » Fri Feb 16, 2007 12:15 pm

I can agree to disagree. But if I claimed that the spirits that some of you may commune with, the magics that some of you may use, and the principles that you believe guide your life do not exist, and then claim that I'm not saying that your beliefs are wrong... who wouldn't find something from with that whole post?
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daibanjo
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Post by daibanjo » Fri Feb 16, 2007 12:41 pm

I don't like using words that others may not understand, unless i'm speaking Welsh to Jessica, :-) look! smiley face.
So Let's get it right.
Tanakh is the collection of Holy scripture. It contains;
The Torah, Torah means law and is the first five books of the bible. In Hebrew they are;
Bereshit
Shemot
Vayikra
Bamidbar
Devarim
Then comes the Neviim. This is the book of the prophets. I stated that Daniel is in the writings not the prophets. I was hoping you would take the opportunity to correct yourself. You didn't so I'll tell you. Daniel is not counted among the prophets the book is not in the Neviim. The books of the Neviim are;
Joshua, Judges ISamuel, IISamuel, IKings, IIKings, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel. Included in the Neviim is the Treisar, or minor prophets, they are;
Hosea, Joel, Amos,Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah, Malachi.
The book of Daniel is in the Ketuvim, the writings. Inspirational stories.
Using Hebrew words can make you sound knowledgable and gives a kind of credibility to things you say. However, history is a passion of mine and I know enough Hebrew to know what I'm talking about.
If i sound a bit peeved it's because I am. I like the friendly discussions on this board and i particularly enjoy the young people who come here with an honest desire to learn and to share their experiences. For myself, I love to tell stories, this is how i teach. I have never before felt the need to show off my academic knowledge on this board and it bothers me greatly that i feel goaded into it.
Now perhaps it's just me but i can't find the post where i say that absolute truth does not exist. To say that absolute truth does not exist isn't absolutely true. :-)
What i did say was that you are the only one on this board who claims that you have absolute truth. If i was to approach this forum with the claim that the Mabinogion is literal truth and those who do not accept it as such will face the wrath of the Gods, then I would face much harsher criticism than you face. And rightly so.
It'll be all right in the end. If it's not all right, it's not the end.

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Graver
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Post by Graver » Fri Feb 16, 2007 2:40 pm

Ah, horse patookie. You're right. When it was first said that Daniel wasn't in there, I went to do different sites to investigate, and both sites listed Daniel as one of the books. But, upon your further insistance, I broadened my search out a bit to 6 sites, and found 4 that substantiate your claim, and only the original 2 that substantiate mine. I also got out the book here at my college's library, and found it missing. I'm sorry for insisting so heartily on that. :sad4:

Also, it wasn't you that made those claims, but rather one of your contemporaries.

Oi, being wrong on that Daniel thing hurts hard. Gar!
Maybe not?

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Post by SageWolf » Sat Feb 17, 2007 5:17 am

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Pride Goeth before the fall :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
To Error is Human, To really foul things up Requires a Computer.

unknown as far as I know

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Graver
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Post by Graver » Sat Feb 17, 2007 10:22 am

Indeed. oi. Oh well... maybe it will help get my thread back on track. I helped spam it up with this stuff more than any other person did... oi.
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Post by katsu » Sun Feb 18, 2007 6:40 pm

Graver wrote: Katsu:
I didn't bring up Daniel. Your fellow pagan did.
You are correct, my bad :oops:
/|\

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Graver
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Post by Graver » Wed Feb 21, 2007 5:41 pm

No worries. Its a good time for admitting mistakes, eh?
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Post by Jescissa » Sat Feb 24, 2007 9:28 am

Graver, since you ask what Pagans believe, I did answer your question but I don't know whether you ever saw it. The post begins...
Jescissa wrote:What do I believe? Wow. Gigantic question. As I grow and change and experience life I find that I am constantly taking my beliefs out for a test drive. It's not because I am constantly in doubt...merely as I learn, I want to know whether my beliefs are still relevant to me, whether they still make sense.
Hope you find it interesting...
"If you trust in yourself and believe in your dreams and follow your star...you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy. Goodbye." - Miss Tick, Terry Pratchett's Wee Free Men

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Post by xAutumn_Leafx » Fri Mar 02, 2007 10:43 pm

*Jumping on the bandwagon - oh, what a rickety ride!* :-D

I was raised non-denominational Christian and there is still a large part of me that is Christian and always will be. I cannot deny those beliefs, not because I was told by my fundamentalist family, but because I truly believe in certain things. Just as with my Native American background, there are also things from that aspect that I can't deny. And yet these are many of the things that have never been taught to me in church and have in fact, been used by others in an attempt turn my faith against me. I believe what I feel, not what I'm told. And growing up in the way I did, it's taken me a long time, too long, to be okay with listening to my own heart.

I've embraced my pagan side, no matter how much it corresponds or wars with my christian side. And in truth, part of the reason I've been able to embrace it is because pagans have embraced me. Regardless of what beliefs I have, pagans respect the fact that I believe them and not ONE pagan that I've met has ever told me that I'm "wrong" to believe in this or that. Not one pagan has turned my continuing search for knowledge and the truth into a guilt-trip or lesson of how I'm evil and should do penance for having such evil within me. A thirst for knowledge, for finding the truth, should never be acquainted with being simply "the temptation of evil." Choosing ignorance and turning away from knowledge is a worse fate, in my opinion.

By not blindly following where others go or where I'm told or pushed to go, I feel like I've strengthened my faith and finally made it real. I know I'm not done; I'm constantly striving to not be a pretense of faith, security and peace, but to actively pursue and acquire these traits. I don't feel like I can do that without looking within myself and following my own path. Isn't it better to come to God/The Divine by taking a path that you truly believe, one that is completely yours, that you can be firm in it's understanding?

There are things within me that I know to be right. They may not be right for you, or for anyone else, but they are right for me. Who am I to tell you that what you believe is wrong? What you feel with every breath you take, that which fills your very essence? It can be similar and yet different for everyone. There's a reason people follow their instincts. Some say it's the whisper of God or the Divine; some say it's the divine within us all; some say it's just simply logic. These instincts create our individual paths, giving the turns, hills and dips that we have the instinct to avoid or to follow. To follow our path is to be true to ourselves. In being true to ourselves, we honor that which created us the way we are.

Wow. I so did not mean to ramble on with that, but I got on a roll. I hope this helps to bring some enlightenment to someone else. I like to help, where I can. :-)

Blessings to all!
"The richness I achieve comes from Nature, the source of my inspiration." ~ Claude Monet

"Your vision will become clear only when you look into your heart. Who looks outside, dreams. Who looks inside, awakens." ~Carl Jung

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Post by Windwalker » Sun Mar 04, 2007 5:35 pm

Well spoken, Autumn Leaf!
si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes

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Post by fatale » Wed Mar 14, 2007 6:50 am

Question for Graver:
Why are you here? Following your Christian 10 commendments you have no choice but condemming us. I'm not sure what goal you have communicating within this community.
Do you question your own path? Do you try to convert anybody here? If you want to learn about Paganism, Wicca or any other "alternative" religion your mind should be open. It doesn't seem this way to me. I'm not trying to be harsh or mean, but I truely wonder about your motives.

Anyway, my path is private and sacred to me. Though, I'm not making a secret out of being "pagan", I do not mouth around and "spread the word"
One thing - i believe every pagen who strays form what I KNOW is right, goes to winterland! ;) (j/k)

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Graver
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Post by Graver » Wed Mar 14, 2007 12:16 pm

I don't follow the 10 Commandments. And none of them say anything about how I'm to treat pagans. It just says that i'm not supposed to be one. Christians aren't bound by Jewish law.

I'm here to expand my own knowledge on the subject of paganism. I don't think you can learn anything about beliefs from publications, because publications are fluffed, edited, and ammended to make it more presentable to its target audience (and that's just assuming that its not just outright lies). I suppose I could allow my knowledge of paganism to come from Christian liturature on the subject, but I'd rather learn about paganism from (call me silly) pagans.

I've found that there are some who can respect this, and have shared their beliefs. But it seems for the most part, the members here would prefer that I read lies and slander about them than the truth. Either that or spend countless hours sifting through spam-ridden threads to find posts that contain some sort of communication of beliefs.

So, for the most part, I've given up my pursuit here. Every once in awhile, when I'm bored, I'll pop in and try to find some things and post in a thread or two, but I've mostly moved my search to other pagan forums that are less... close-minded about sharing.
Maybe not?

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Jescissa
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Post by Jescissa » Wed Mar 14, 2007 1:01 pm

Graver wrote:But it seems for the most part, the members here would prefer that I read lies and slander about them than the truth.
Now that's an interesting thing to say. No one here has told you to go and read what your co-religionists say about Pagans/Heathens, but practically unanimously we have told you to read the articles on the main site, written independantly by Pagans/Heathens for Pagans/Heathens. Pagans would not slander other Pagans!
"If you trust in yourself and believe in your dreams and follow your star...you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy. Goodbye." - Miss Tick, Terry Pratchett's Wee Free Men

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