Tell the Christian

Discussions of all things pagan and neo-pagan.
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katsu
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Post by katsu » Mon Feb 12, 2007 10:54 pm

Graver wrote:

I'm looking for your own description of what you believe concerning the supernatural (essentially, your religion/faith).
*Sidenote* our faith is based on nature so it would not be supernatural but just natural.:lol:
Graver wrote:What do you believe?

A honest question, as I've said, will get a honest answer. Recently the Chief of my order has published a book called: "What Druids believe". (I promise to do a review soon guys ;) ). In there he states:
In summary, most Druids today will hold to the following six core beliefs: the importance of tolerance and accepting diversity of opinion and belief; the existence of Spirit or Deity; the existence of the Otherworld; the process of Rebirth; the Web of Life; and the Law of the Harvest.

-Philip Carr-Gomm-
These core beliefs translates as follows:
1) We all believe different things, there are many true ways.
2) There is a creative force. We can call it many things: God, Goddess, Deity, Spirit etc (either single or plural).
3) The Otherworld can either be here (Astral, Sidhe etc) or an afterlife (Heaven, Greenworld etc).
4) We are born more than once. Even Christians believe they will be reborn. Either in Heaven or upon Rapture in the new Earth.
5) All are part of nature. If we harm the natural world, we are actually harming ourselves.
6) Harvest. Called different by most faiths, but the idea is still the same: Karma, the Law of Threefold Return, Do unto others..... etc.

You will find that a lot of these things are quite common with most Pagans, sometimes more core beliefs, sometimes less. But it sums up a few basics.

Katsu
/|\

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Graver
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Post by Graver » Tue Feb 13, 2007 12:13 am

daibanjo:

Actually, you're wrong. I've never clamimed to have all the answers. I don't have all the answers. I do have some things that I believe are absolute truth. You do not believe that those things are absolute truth. I don't believe that what you believe is true. You don't believe that what I believe is true. So, I don't really understand where the issue is on that. I'm coming to you guys to learn from you. Again, where's the problem.

So far, the only problem I've encountered is people trying to turn my inqueries around against me to try and take the focus off of the good things about the various aspects of paganism, and put it on the negative things about Christianity. I know about the negatives in Christianity. Modern culture thrives on shoving the problems with Christianity down the throats of every good consumer, so I don't really need to hear it here. I'm here to hear what the good things are about paganism. That's it. I'm willing to answer questions about my faith in the appropriate threads, but I don't think other thread should be spammed off-topic to turn their intention around.

As for you being in the grip of Satan... lol, that's a funny question. I do not believe that your his puppet, willing slave, or anything along those lines, no. But here again, we're talking about me and Christianity instead of you and whichever brand of paganism you personall adhere to.

RFM:

I made that Signature based on past experiences. You've already read about that in my Intro thread, though. My experience shows me that people either love me or hate me. I have honestly never been a member of a forum where I simply remained a member. I usually either quit after the staff frustrated me, or I became part of the staff (I'm currently a Moderator at a 25,000+ member message board, and a Moderator at a 100+ member message board and I've been a Mod/Admin for a few smaller boards for a time). I've been restricted from public access to a Christo-pagan forum because I was too outspokenly Christian (I stated that I believed that pagans are wrong, and they didn't like that) and I've been met with straight up disdain at Christian-only message boards for my particular point of view 9I'm not mainstream enough to make all the busy-bodies comfy).

I'll give those a read next week (I'm a bit bogged down with homework to do any serious side-reading atm).
As for Dictionary.com, I can play that game too!

Pagan:
"an irreligious or hedonistic person."

So, do you consider yourself as irreligious, hedonistic person? Because that's not the impression I get of pagans. If that is a perfect description of what a pagan is, then I guess my perception of pagans was a bit off. But if that isn't perfect, then maybe the dictionary.com definition of Fundamentalist isn't perfect either?

Katsu:
Thank you for that.
Maybe not?

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Graver
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Post by Graver » Tue Feb 13, 2007 1:19 am

Rain ForestMoon wrote:The Romans had a saying "Nomen est Omen" and with a Signature like yours "Soon-to-be subject of hatred and ridicule" it is a fair bet that it is a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Well, certain members of the site staff seem to be making it much easier by baiting me and trying to pit me up as an example of why religious tolerance shouldn't be applied to Christianty, because being a hypocrit is fine as long as you're convinced that you're right and they're wrong...
Maybe not?

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Post by iriseyes » Tue Feb 13, 2007 4:46 am

Okay, now Im going to put my 2 cents in.

One I was a Christian trying to live as I was told to live. I was miserable for if I felt "God" it would only disappear in minutes. I went to church, I lived how I was told. I joined in with the others bashing other religions and especially the Pagen life. So bad that I had a friend who as I knew was a witch. I turned away from her cause she was working for the Devil, boy was I mislead and ever so wrong.

This I feel is right for me, I feel this in my entire being. I am free.

I am new to this site and have only posted a few times. As I see it Graver you seem to be baiting people on here IMO that is wrong for you to do..

If you looking for answers do like I did and go to your public library and pick up a book and read it.. I suggest you read this book as it is so dear to my heart. "Practical Celtic Magic" I started with that book then hit the internet and have done some heavy reading and research. There is alot of information about Pagen life on the internet, I have spent hours reading and searching.

Like I said before, I did the church thing and this is what happened to me. This is some pretty personal information but will help me get my point across.
I was married to an SOB. He would smack me around, cheat on me, degrade me to the fullest extent and would belittle me every chance he got. I talked to some people in the church and this is what I was told.
"If you lived by Gods law and went to church that would all stop", well to H*LL with that idea cause the attacks got worse and didn't get better, then I was told "its the devil doing this to you" I battled for almost 16 years with the "DEVIL". BS.. So. now I am here..
To thine own self be true.

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Post by iriseyes » Tue Feb 13, 2007 4:47 am

katsu wrote:
Graver wrote:

I'm looking for your own description of what you believe concerning the supernatural (essentially, your religion/faith).
YES, IT IS NATURAL. TOOK ME A WHILE TO FIND IT BUT BABY, IM THERE.

*Sidenote* our faith is based on nature so it would not be supernatural but just natural.:lol:
Graver wrote:What do you believe?

A honest question, as I've said, will get a honest answer. Recently the Chief of my order has published a book called: "What Druids believe". (I promise to do a review soon guys ;) ). In there he states:
In summary, most Druids today will hold to the following six core beliefs: the importance of tolerance and accepting diversity of opinion and belief; the existence of Spirit or Deity; the existence of the Otherworld; the process of Rebirth; the Web of Life; and the Law of the Harvest.

-Philip Carr-Gomm-
These core beliefs translates as follows:
1) We all believe different things, there are many true ways.
2) There is a creative force. We can call it many things: God, Goddess, Deity, Spirit etc (either single or plural).
3) The Otherworld can either be here (Astral, Sidhe etc) or an afterlife (Heaven, Greenworld etc).
4) We are born more than once. Even Christians believe they will be reborn. Either in Heaven or upon Rapture in the new Earth.
5) All are part of nature. If we harm the natural world, we are actually harming ourselves.
6) Harvest. Called different by most faiths, but the idea is still the same: Karma, the Law of Threefold Return, Do unto others..... etc.

You will find that a lot of these things are quite common with most Pagans, sometimes more core beliefs, sometimes less. But it sums up a few basics.

Katsu
To thine own self be true.

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Post by Willow » Tue Feb 13, 2007 5:31 am

Meh...I'll bite.
I was a committed Pentecostal until I was 22 when a series ofthings happenned,
(1) I fell in love with a woman
(2) I began to feel that as a woman I had no place in the church

I was sitting on the shsores of lake erie one day trying to think through all my conflicting emotions and time....for lack of a better word...stretched. I was there for an unknown amount of time could have been hours could have been minutes, but for that time, I was outside of time. It was my first taste of the power that was in nature.

I began to read feminist theology (Fiorenza, McFague, Soelle) and re-interpret all my other theological training with them, as well as green and liberation theologians. Slowly, I began to realise that there are two (general) tpyes of feminists in the church. Those who can re-interpret their faith in the light of feminism and those who find the to incompatible. I was the latter, which was sad because I loved my church. But wherever I went I was warned of the dangers of feminism, homosexauality. I felt I was being hypocritical and could not longer take it.

So i tried mroe liberal churches such as the united, even unitarian church. But I realised I no longer believed in the basic premises of sin or an anthropomorphic God.

When my great grandmother died we found her diaries. In them she had pursued many ancient "superstitious" beliefs and practised a more nature based religion. I also had a ong talk with my mother (who is part aboriginal) and while she was sad about my decision to leave the church, she encouraged me to study the faith of her grandmother.

So, I am pereptually changing what I believe. But I have realised a few things
(1) I do not believe in sin or evil. I think Ihave explained this in another thread but feel free to ask questions
(2) I don't believe in God, i believe there is a sort of energy at the root of everything and the best we can do is try adn live in harmony with that evnergy (sort of like taoism but not quite).
(3) the best way to live in harmony is to take care of nature and observe it.

If there were more specifics I could answer them, but I think that is good for now. Go ahead and ask if you need something cleared up or more specific.
Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
Dr. Seuss (1904 - 1991)

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Post by Kystar » Tue Feb 13, 2007 6:13 am

As a woman and as someone gifted with "talents," I never felt quite right in the christian church of my childhood. I can hear spirits, I can speak to Dryads and Water nymphs. I have had premenitions...that came true. I have on occassion moved objects with my mind. I have seen vengful spirits. (Trust me, watching a skeleton rise from a misty lake after a storm makes you do a double take!) I have done effective Past Life Regression...and connected with others in my current life that I was connected to before!

After I matured, I realized that I was too independent for that faith, that I was too much of an individual to be shunted off to "appropriate" roles based on my sex. Why were women less honorable? Why were women less holy? Why were women to be servants to men?

So, I did some research. And I did some MORE research. And I found out that most of those ideas were planted by a Patriarcal society that was attempting to exert dominence over a matriarchal society in order to expand their control sphere. That there were religions out there that viewed the Male and Female as equals. That held women in honor for their ability to give birth and nurture life. Faiths that held the earth in reverence and didn't seek to use the natural world as a means to gain.

So, I walked away from the Byzantine Catholic Church my parents tried to cram me into. I found my path. I am a witch. I do not worship any of the old gods, but merely see them as names attached to Guardians. The Divine is an unknown...a distant creator, who loves us enough to let us grow...and has placed guardians here to help us, if we only listen. Earth, Air, Fire, Water all have guardians. Spirit has guardians...who are guides. Animals and trees have spirits...sometimes not as developed as ours, and sometimes more developed...after all, a centuries old tree has had nothing to do but think!

Any more information, I refuse to give, besides the fact that I married a Techo-Druid with similar beliefs.

As for finding the reading material...you can't from the Forum...but you CAN from http://www.paganlibrary.com, the mainpage attached to this forum...there are reading rooms there with various articles.
You say "Witch" like it's a bad thing!

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Post by SageWolf » Tue Feb 13, 2007 8:39 am

I just skimmed this topic, I'll read it more later when I actually have a minute, Anyway, I'll just say this, yes we are a nature believe people, and as far as I am concerned, you can call it super natural if you'd like, cause in my eyes it is super natural, I mean if you tick off a god/ddess they can destoy a city, but in all that turmoil, they have have a child born to a couple who had been childless for 20 years or what not, thats super natural to me, as for the other definition of supernatural are you talking of ghosts and aliens and all that?

Anyway, if you are looking for that well.. hmmm.. ok

SageWolf
To Error is Human, To really foul things up Requires a Computer.

unknown as far as I know

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Graver
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Post by Graver » Tue Feb 13, 2007 10:30 am

Willow, Kystar, thank you for that. Those are the kinds of things I'm trying to find and I greatly appreciate your sharing them.

Sagewolf:
Every religion has 1 thing in common and that is their view of the supernatural, even if that's not what they call it. By supernatural, I mean the things outside of what is commonly considered natural. Things outside of this world and outside of human power.

Spirits= Supernatural
Deities= Supernatural
Kid frolicking in the woods= Natural
Aliens planting their kindred here so they would evolve separately= Supernatural(ish)
Maybe not?

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Post by morgana » Tue Feb 13, 2007 11:31 am

Hmm, well here's my story for what it's worth. I have never been Christian in the way you are. Sure I've celebrated Christmas and Easter, though only in as far as giving gifts, decorating house and tree, spending time with family and doing Easter egg coloring goes. I was never made to go to church, and the only times I did were for a wedding, and a funeral, both of which were not very comfortable experiences for me.

Later I occasionaly had to sit through Sunday mass while I was dating a Catholic guy, but again, it made me feel slightly uncomfortable. Also while I was a kid I learned about Judaism through family friends, which while interesting, was still not quite my cup of tea.

In highschool a friend of mine let me borrow a copy of the book Siddhartha (sp?), a story about Buddhism. That too was interesting, but a bit too much for me. Finally after highschool, I started dating a guy who was pagan. I found it interesting and started doing some research on my own. I was pagan up until about a year ago (by pagan I mean I had a specific goddess whom I prayed/talked to and believed very much in the power of nature).

About a year ago I had some particularly nasty stuff happen in my life which led me to feel very alone. No matter how much I prayed, no matter how loudly I called, the goddess with whom I had developed such a kinship would not come. To this day she has yet to come speak with me. At the moment I still have my belief and love of nature, but there is no deity, and no knowledge of what will happen when I die. While this used to bother me, it doesn't anymore. I have survived some of the hardest time in my life without leaning on a deity for help or explanation, and I can continue to do so. Perhaps she will be back, and if so I will welcome it, for perhaps she was simply trying to teach me independance by tossing me from the nest (as mothers sometimes do). I don't know for certain, but I'm happy right now, and that's what's truly important.

I suppose the moral of my story would be: Always seek to learn new things and always keep your mind open to the possibilities, because you never know what lies ahead in life.
"Love like you've never been hurt."

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Post by Willow » Tue Feb 13, 2007 12:47 pm

Well, actually graver *puts on professor hat*

In shamanism (most types) , spirits are not considered supernatural, instead they are a naturual part of the system (as much as you and I)

If we place a term of ours (such as supernatural) in their system, we are reflecting the colonial powers that told Indians they were Hindus and instested on referring to Muslims as Mohhomadmen.

instead, I think it is important to acknowledge the internal validity of a worldview. If they say they don't have supernatural beings..but they do have spirits. We have to accept that. Now it can be argued if you like that we would view them as supernatural based on our understanding. Which I think is a more PC wording. But the authentic understanding of the transcendant is best understood form the inside.
Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
Dr. Seuss (1904 - 1991)

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davisherm
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Post by davisherm » Tue Feb 13, 2007 1:18 pm

I just wanted to clear something up here.
Graver wrote:
Well, certain members of the site staff seem to be making it much easier by baiting me and trying to pit me up as an example of why religious tolerance shouldn't be applied to Christianity, because being a hypocrite is fine as long as you're convinced that you're right and they're wrong...
I have yet to see any members of the forums staff weigh in around here. Forums staff members, also known as moderators or Administrators have their title displayed immediately beneath their name, as well as have 5 full bars, rather than a post count meter.

What I have seen, though is a couple of folks who are mistrusting of the intentions of a self-declared fundamental Christian. You see, a lot of us have suffered abuses at the hands of people who claim to follow the same God that you do. This is a horrible thing, and quite obviously these children were not true followers of Christ, as they would know that Judgment is His, and to leave it up to Him.

Sadly, just like in the outside world, this same type of person comes to the Library and they come spoiling for a fight. They've found themselves a nest full of witches and heathens and they're going to take them down in the name of the Lord. Just as sadly, many of us have been wounded deeply enough that we will take the bait and defend ourselves from unprovoked attacks... and sometimes defend ourselves from things that we see as becoming an attack before it happens.

If you read through the Alternative religions section, you can probably find the detritus left by many such past occurrences. It's the same old story over and over again. Somebody claiming to be an open and tolerant Christian comes to this board to learn about paganism. And what we find instead is a hate filled mind, come to start trouble. Many of us have grown tired of this, and try to weed out the bad with loaded questions and not so subtle hints.

I sincerely hope that my fellows have been wrong in their assumptions thus far. But at the moment, you certainly do fit the profile quite nicely. You show up and claim an altruistic reason for searching us out. Then you identify yourself as somehow both fundamental, yet open minded. After a few innocent posts, you come out of left field with a question that delves deeply into the depths of our souls, while at the same time telling us not to ask you any questions in return because you don't want this to turn into 'quiz the Christian'.

Frankly, that's not a very fair question to ask. We are not here on display for you. If you're interested in the varied pagan faiths, there's ample information to be found in our reading rooms. Here's a section that many beginners read first: HTTP://www.paganlibrary.com/introductory/index.php


Now, if you're looking to hear our stories, all you have to do is ask nicely. Some of us will share, and more than willingly as they already have. Somewhere, I've got the really really long version of my story written out. I think I posted it in this subforum, actually. It was about two years ago, so I'm not sure if it's even still around.

So here's the short and sweet.

Like some others here, I've always been more sensitive to the so called paranormal world that exists around us. As a side note, it's not paranormal. These odd experiences are part of nature and are perfectly natural. They're just outside the norm of regular human experience.

Anyway, I'd never felt comfortable in the faith of my family. I'd always felt that there was something missing and something entirely artificial about the way they worshiped their God. I'd always felt more at ease in the forest near my house. For me, listening to a self righteous man reading from a book just simply cannot compare to walking off the path and wandering about the mossy trees, smelling the dampness of the woods, feeling the cool breeze from the creek on your face, and listening to the voices of the forest. That is how I initially experienced the Divine.

I'm not saying that there is only one way to experience the divine or that my way is the best way. Some feel the glory of god in song. Some are moved by self righteous men reading from a book. Some do not worship at all, but live in harmony with nature. Some honor their ancestors as guardians. Some are moved by the thought of keeping Alien spirits from infesting their bodies. There are many paths and they all lead to the same place.

In a nutshell, what I believe is that there is an all encompassing power. I call it The Divine and for me it is aspected by both male and female. You can call it a God. Call it a Goddess. Call it Gaia. Call it the Force. Luminous beings are we. :lol: But seriously - we are, each and every one of us, connected to this power and to each other. Some of us are more in tune to this connection than others and we can literally feel the energy flowing. Some of us are not. We all have our place in life and we all have a purpose.

It gets more involved than that obviously, but I'm at work and don't really have the time to devote to properly explaining the ins and outs, nooks and crannies, and peccadilloes of my personal brand of faith.


Anyway - Welcome to the Library. We are many voices and yours is welcome. Please forgive us our past experiences with those who claim to serve your God and our prejudices that are born of such trials. Provided you are who you say you are, I don't foresee any problems.
"I just want to play on my Panpipes..." Cake

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Graver
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Post by Graver » Tue Feb 13, 2007 1:52 pm

Willow, thank you for the clarification. My definitions were sort of explainingby what I meant when I referred to supernatural. But again, thank you for clearing that up. I won'r make that mistake again ;)

davisherm:

Thank you for sharing that. I truly appreciate it. As for the first part of your post, I'm going to reply via PM to prevent this thread from following suit of the others. But I do appreciate your entire post.
Maybe not?

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Post by Windwalker » Tue Feb 13, 2007 8:09 pm

I appreciate your willingness to learn but admit confusion. When we use the term fundie, we are referring to someone of completely closed mind who refuses to accept or entertain anything that doesn't agree with their religious standpoint and worldview. Therefore a fundie who wishes to learn seems to be a contradiction in terms. Your intentions are murky; we don't know whether or not you are legit here, as davisherm has explained in more detail.

All I can say is what others have said: go check out the reading material at the library. Paganism is such a broad subject. As for me, I'm not doing to go in-depth with my beliefs as I only do that with people I trust, and you thus far are not one of them. (Don't be offended, I take a while to trust people!) Basically, I am a hard-polytheistic, animistic follower of a nature-based path. I practice shamanic journeying but would not call myself a shaman.

Please allow us this opportunity to learn more about your own beliefs as well. Quid pro quo, agent Starling.
si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes

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Post by Jescissa » Wed Feb 14, 2007 5:48 am

What do I believe? Wow. Gigantic question. As I grow and change and experience life I find that I am constantly taking my beliefs out for a test drive. It's not because I am constantly in doubt...merely as I learn, I want to know whether my beliefs are still relevant to me, whether they still make sense.

I feel reluctant to come straight out and say "I believe in X,Y,Z..." because laying out my beliefs in that manner removes the emotional and spiritual meaning from the relationship. What you're asking for, I suppose, is a slightly detatched, textbook-esque declaration...but I don't feel I can reduce a complex relationship that encompasses not just the spiritual, but in my every day life too. My beliefs affect the way I live my life, the way I treat my friends and family, the way I steward the Earth and care for Her.

Not only would it be a disservice to my beliefs (in particular my deities) if I spoke too objectively about them, but whilst I trust and hold dear many people on this board, like many of them, I don't want to share all my spiritual experiences with people I've only met online! I don't really share my spiritual experiences with people I know in real life either.

What I can tell you is that I've always found God and Goddess more easily within nature than I ever did in a building. I can step outside of my house and immediately feel the four elements; water - rain,(I live in Wales, we have so much rain we export it!) fire - the heat of the sun, earth - the soil I stand on, and air - the wind that plays with my hair. I am guided along my lifepath by the way each of these elements react around me.

I will share one spiritual experience with you and the rest of the board; I was once guided down a steep rocky mountain path in a dangerous storm by impossibly precise currents of air. This experience was powerfully spiritual for me, it's one of the many times I have been in a position of need and I have been guided to safety by the God and Goddess. I felt the deities were with me all through that experience, holding my hands and guiding me. The ways I could tell this were the air currents were different to the rest of the storm, I could feel the difference. Whilst the wind was howling around me and in chaos, the air guiding me was controlled and determinedly moving in one direction; and I definitely felt the presence of my deities beside me. I knew I wasn't alone anymore and I didn't have to be scared.

If you are serious in learning about the different things Pagans believe I have to ask...why don't you want to read articles written by Pagans on what Pagans believe? I know they can't speak for all of us...but we can't speak for all of us either :-D In fact, there are so many different opinions here that you might get confused by us! Obviously you recognise that not all Pagans believe in the same things, but I could recommend cohesive introductory texts to you that would make more sense in the long run than a few questions asked here.
"If you trust in yourself and believe in your dreams and follow your star...you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy. Goodbye." - Miss Tick, Terry Pratchett's Wee Free Men

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