Coming back from the dead......

Discussions of all things pagan and neo-pagan.
User avatar
dragonflydrummer
Level 10
Level 10
Posts: 280
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2005 10:46 pm
Location: Seattle
Contact:

apologies -- I've been busy...

Post by dragonflydrummer » Thu Jun 16, 2005 4:47 am

=D> Sorry aintgottaclue, I'm basically of the mind to stand aside and let you have the argument re: Jesus' historical existence with yourself. As far as I can see there is no direct historical trace (although the Talmudic information is very interesting). Certainly anything Paul said is suspect as he never met Jesus (if there was a Jesus), and he had some very definite agendas of his own.

Perhaps 'resurrection' cannot be, by the arrangement of our idea of the definition of death. If a person comes back from death, they are not truly dead -- if a person is dead they can't come back. The myth of Jesus' resurrection is an anomalie -- sort of like a mobius strip. It's conceivable that this semantic might be different in other cultures, but I don't think that applies to the Jesus Myth. Personally, I think aspects of the Dionysos/Osirus stories were grafted onto him over time. This probably served the purpose of gaining followers from among those well-disposed towards Dionysos. After that progressively--Ba-Zang! It was "Clobberin' Time," for Xtians against their Pagan rivals.
:tongue8:
The spirit abides immovable; it beholds the infernal monsters swarm down upon it, and does not fear. (Eliphas Levi -- The Sixth Hour)

User avatar
aintgottaclue
Level 2
Level 2
Posts: 44
Joined: Wed Jun 01, 2005 11:33 am
Location: USA
Contact:

Resurrection.....

Post by aintgottaclue » Thu Jun 16, 2005 5:32 am

dragonflydrummer..."Perhaps 'resurrection' cannot be, by the arrangement of our idea of the definition of death. If a person comes back from death, they are not truly dead -- if a person is dead they can't come back. The myth of Jesus' resurrection is an anomalie -- sort of like a mobius strip."

Yeah, I like the mobius strip analogy. The "problem" with Jesus' "existence" is that there were a LOT of persons named "Jesus," during that time period....who knows if one of them was "THE" Jesus or not. I kind of lean toward your view that the Christian's "Jesus" didn't even exist, but is simply a myth. Yeah, Paul was a few bricks shy of a load himself, and John seems to have been pretty confused, too!

But, you're right....it is kind of a dead end argument, because those who "believe" in the resurrection aren't going to let a few "facts" interfere with their "belief" anyway.
Christians are irrational. I may not be a Christian, but at least I'm rational! (Well, most of the time, anyway.)

User avatar
dragonflydrummer
Level 10
Level 10
Posts: 280
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2005 10:46 pm
Location: Seattle
Contact:

undead....

Post by dragonflydrummer » Thu Jun 16, 2005 1:18 pm

Well -- the Jesus Myth does get exciting when I see it as the present manifestation of the "god who dies and is reborn," in the sense of a representation of the seasonal Lord of the Vines, or Green Man. Too bad the Xtians had to screw the rest of the tale up with a buncha patriarchal hooey.
:smt017

Part of the reason I like the Fantastic Four over the Xtian Trinity is Susan Storm, the Invisible Woman. In many ways she is the most powerful of the quartet, and I see the other three -- her brother, her father/husband, and her friend (Ben Grimm of course) as representing the ways a woman can relate to men, and vice versa. I like that kind of three(or four)-in-one a little more.

That's where the Jesus resurrection thing gets sorta boring for me. Where's the Green Woman... ? :huge:

Did resurrection actually happen to someone? Hell no.
The spirit abides immovable; it beholds the infernal monsters swarm down upon it, and does not fear. (Eliphas Levi -- The Sixth Hour)

User avatar
aintgottaclue
Level 2
Level 2
Posts: 44
Joined: Wed Jun 01, 2005 11:33 am
Location: USA
Contact:

Post by aintgottaclue » Thu Jun 16, 2005 1:22 pm

Amen!! =D>
Christians are irrational. I may not be a Christian, but at least I'm rational! (Well, most of the time, anyway.)

User avatar
dragonflydrummer
Level 10
Level 10
Posts: 280
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2005 10:46 pm
Location: Seattle
Contact:

more on the Fantastic Four...

Post by dragonflydrummer » Fri Jun 17, 2005 6:22 am

The main reason I mention the Fantastic Four in contrast to the Jesus resurrection thing is this:

In the origin story of the Fantastic Four (from the comic-book F.F. #1) -- they are flying an experimental early spacecraft which goes out of control and is bathed in way past lethal exposures to Gamma radiation, which instead of killing them, subjects them to a sort of 'Shamanic Death' -- where they are transformed to have extreme physical powers. One can stretch his body, one can be invisible, one gains incredible strength but becomes butt-ugly, and one finds he can turn his body into flame. They afterwards work together to help humankind from demonic foes such as the evil genius Dr. Doom.

OK the line here is: Lives Exploring = Shamanic Death/Transformation = Positively Changed Lives. Most anyone could have it happen to them, right? It has popular appeal. :lol:

Now with the Jesus story-- he preaches to people, gets busted by the soldiers, they beat the be-Jesus out of him, kill him, he dissappears from the tomb, and then resurrects to become guess what? Your judge in the afterlife you sinful worms!

The line here is: Life Preaching = Death & Resurrection = Universal Judge of the Lives of Sinners. Wouldn't you want to be just like him? He's scarey. :roll:


What I'm trying to point out here is that the transformation gained from "Shamanic Death" seems a more human and beneficial gain, than the judgemental thing that comes from Xtian resurrection. Apart from "dying for your sins," that is (which I never could understand.)
:blob8: :blob: :blob8:
The spirit abides immovable; it beholds the infernal monsters swarm down upon it, and does not fear. (Eliphas Levi -- The Sixth Hour)

User avatar
aintgottaclue
Level 2
Level 2
Posts: 44
Joined: Wed Jun 01, 2005 11:33 am
Location: USA
Contact:

Dying for your sin....

Post by aintgottaclue » Fri Jun 17, 2005 4:39 pm

Dragonflydrummer....You said, "Apart from "dying for your sins," that is (which I never could understand.)"

Never have heard a good explanation for J.C.'s death being for all sins of all men for all time...past present and future. [As if his death could have doodley-squat to do with any FUTURE "sin" that someone may or may not commit....I mean hell, if you're gonna forgive people IN ADVANCE, then it would seem pointless to worry about whether one was doing "right or wrong."] I also have a little problem with the "all men" part of it, since the entire O.T. is geared to ONLY the descendants of Abraham, and then all of a sudden the N.T. "includes everyone?" What, God changed his mind after 4,000 years? The whole "died for your sins bit" escapes me. But then again, even if Jesus "existed," I don't believe he was "Divine" [half God/half man] anyway----in fact, I seriously doubt half the N.T. is anything more than fictional wishful thinking by the Roman Church of the late 3rd century through the 16th century (and possibly by wishful thinking authors even in the first or second century)....outside the Bible itself, there's just not a whole lot of evidence Jesus even existed.
Christians are irrational. I may not be a Christian, but at least I'm rational! (Well, most of the time, anyway.)

User avatar
dragonflydrummer
Level 10
Level 10
Posts: 280
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2005 10:46 pm
Location: Seattle
Contact:

died for my sins...? you mean me? Were you talking to me...?

Post by dragonflydrummer » Fri Jun 17, 2005 4:55 pm

a.g.c.--

Well it certainly makes you feel guilty though. I mean it sort of takes an accusing tone: " Jesus died for your sins -- so you'd better appreciate it, or be an ungrateful sinner as well as a hopeless one."

Helpless and Guilty? Pick one. :lol:
The spirit abides immovable; it beholds the infernal monsters swarm down upon it, and does not fear. (Eliphas Levi -- The Sixth Hour)

User avatar
aintgottaclue
Level 2
Level 2
Posts: 44
Joined: Wed Jun 01, 2005 11:33 am
Location: USA
Contact:

helpless/guilty, etc.

Post by aintgottaclue » Sat Jun 18, 2005 8:25 am

Hmmm....guess their effort is wasted on me then, 'cause I don't feel guilty, or helpless, and I didn't even know the guy (Jesus)!! If he even existed. If some clown was so whacked out that he decided to commit suicide for "mankind," to supposedly save THEM from THEIR "sins," oh well, too bad.....he musta been on some REALLY GOOD SHIT!!!! :Luck:
Christians are irrational. I may not be a Christian, but at least I'm rational! (Well, most of the time, anyway.)

User avatar
dragonflydrummer
Level 10
Level 10
Posts: 280
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2005 10:46 pm
Location: Seattle
Contact:

The O'Bull-Puckey Factor...

Post by dragonflydrummer » Sun Jun 19, 2005 1:58 am

I do sometimes think about that character. Jehu-Joshua-Jesus, I mean. In some ways it doesn't matter if there was an historic basis. There are parts of that story that inherently resonate -- that do sound feasible: There was a healer. He came up against the political/spiritual power-structure of the time. He gained a following. He was betrayed from within his own people. He was made a political prisoner, and was tortured & killed.

These things happen all the time. This is part of what I find so inexplicable about the xtians. They get misty-eyed and fervent about an injustice that supposedly happened a couple of millenia ago. Fine, that's very commendable. But they are completely blind to, and in denial about the suffering of political prisoners today. I guess it's a whole different thing when xtians are doing the torturing. Say like in this Guantanamo disgrace -- not a peep out of any xtian groups on the topic. It contradicts their understanding of the power-grid, and they don't know what to do, so they do as they are told. Very un-Jesus-like I think. That is how their avatar got cruxified, and that is how political prisoners today are being tortured as well.

And that's where I get very very tired of listening to their doo-doo...
:angry4: :angry4: :angry4:
The spirit abides immovable; it beholds the infernal monsters swarm down upon it, and does not fear. (Eliphas Levi -- The Sixth Hour)

User avatar
aintgottaclue
Level 2
Level 2
Posts: 44
Joined: Wed Jun 01, 2005 11:33 am
Location: USA
Contact:

Post by aintgottaclue » Sun Jun 19, 2005 7:21 am

Unless I am completely misreading history, it seems that more wars have been fought in the name of "religion" (usually involving the Biblical religion, whether O.T. or N.T. Christians) than any other cause. However, I will admit to the possibility these could have been political/economic wars disguised as "religious wars." [And this doesn't count the Roman Church's massacre of anyone that didn't agree with THEIR brand of "Christianity."] Looks to me like the Christians are their own worst enemy! =D> Also doesn't include the idiotic Puritans burning perfectly good women at the stake for being "witches!" :oops:
Christians are irrational. I may not be a Christian, but at least I'm rational! (Well, most of the time, anyway.)

User avatar
dragonflydrummer
Level 10
Level 10
Posts: 280
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2005 10:46 pm
Location: Seattle
Contact:

Post by dragonflydrummer » Sun Jun 19, 2005 10:41 am

Yes -- the mind control, and overt violence exhibited by xtians are among the worst in history. I think it has to do with that denial trick they do. "It's right there in front of me, but it doesn't fit with what I'm told God wants me to see -- so it's not really there ! " I think their belief in an actual Resurrection is a bit like that, only in reverse: "I know it doesn't make any sense and I've never seen anything remotely like it, but I'm told God wants me to believe it. So I do!" :-?

No wonder there's crapola like the Rapture, "Intelligent Design," television preachers, and "W" -- afoot in the world today being passed off as something real and believable.
:minigun: :prayer: :rock:

So I guess this raises the questions -- Is reality mutable? If so -- how mutable is it? Is it mutable enough to resurrect the dead?
The spirit abides immovable; it beholds the infernal monsters swarm down upon it, and does not fear. (Eliphas Levi -- The Sixth Hour)

User avatar
aintgottaclue
Level 2
Level 2
Posts: 44
Joined: Wed Jun 01, 2005 11:33 am
Location: USA
Contact:

mutable reality....

Post by aintgottaclue » Sun Jun 19, 2005 12:01 pm

Hmmm......they say reality is in the eye of the beholder (or something like that)........damnnnnn, that's kind of scarey!! :oops: (scary? Scarey? Hell, you know what I mean!!! #-o )
Christians are irrational. I may not be a Christian, but at least I'm rational! (Well, most of the time, anyway.)

User avatar
dragonflydrummer
Level 10
Level 10
Posts: 280
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2005 10:46 pm
Location: Seattle
Contact:

...only Stephen Hawking knows for sure...

Post by dragonflydrummer » Sun Jun 19, 2005 1:27 pm

There is much of that idea - of the mutability of the "real" world, in current practices of enchantment, divination, and the other magical arts. I think scientists also have begun to realize something along those lines through quantum mechanics, and associated areas of physics. So -- did Jesus just slip into a wrinkle of some "string" dimension and truly resurrect? :roll:

Naaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah...... Xtian "thinkers" made it up! :lol:

:notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy: :laughing3: :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy:
The spirit abides immovable; it beholds the infernal monsters swarm down upon it, and does not fear. (Eliphas Levi -- The Sixth Hour)

User avatar
aintgottaclue
Level 2
Level 2
Posts: 44
Joined: Wed Jun 01, 2005 11:33 am
Location: USA
Contact:

Quantum Physics

Post by aintgottaclue » Sun Jun 19, 2005 1:44 pm

I forget what they call the particles, but there's one that just sort of "pops into existence" (Quark? Muon?) Anyway, the theory is this particle "slows down" (loses velocity) to a speed lower than the speed of light, therefore becoming visible in our universe. Which, of course raises the question, "WHERE the hell was it before it "slowed down!!!!" [The obvious answer would be, "In an alternate universe."] Hey, maybe all them comic books weren't so wild after all?? :oops: :roll:
Christians are irrational. I may not be a Christian, but at least I'm rational! (Well, most of the time, anyway.)

User avatar
dragonflydrummer
Level 10
Level 10
Posts: 280
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2005 10:46 pm
Location: Seattle
Contact:

hey, it could happen...

Post by dragonflydrummer » Sun Jun 19, 2005 4:42 pm

:homework: So maybe Jesus never really died at all -- but popped in and out of an alternate universe...?!?!?!!!!

I like that better than thinking that aliens beamed up his body -- then healed him and sent him back...

:triplets:
The spirit abides immovable; it beholds the infernal monsters swarm down upon it, and does not fear. (Eliphas Levi -- The Sixth Hour)

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests