Coming back from the dead......

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Coming back from the dead......

Post by aintgottaclue » Fri Jun 03, 2005 5:02 pm

Christianity isn't the only belief system that presupposes one Can come back from death.

Question: Is there any actual proof (theoretical or actual) that it is even POSSIBLE to be "resurrected?"
Christians are irrational. I may not be a Christian, but at least I'm rational! (Well, most of the time, anyway.)

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some simple questions of life & death

Post by dragonflydrummer » Fri Jun 03, 2005 11:12 pm

I think a lot of the resurrection mythologies come from watching the cycles of death and rebirth in nature, and then applying a sort of "as above so below" paradigm to life in general -- and human or divine lives in particular.

I'm not sure exactly what would constitute a real resurrection these days. Would a person coming back after being flat-lined on an emergency room table for a certain length of time do it? A person who regains consciousness out of a long coma? (I once knew a kid in junior high school that everyone thought was dead until he learned how to dance... heh heh...)

Does the flame of life have to be entirely extinguished and then spark back, or can it just get really really low? For how long? Can the person who is resurrected come back in another's body, or does it have to be the same one she/he left ?

:clock: :sad11: :smt115
The spirit abides immovable; it beholds the infernal monsters swarm down upon it, and does not fear. (Eliphas Levi -- The Sixth Hour)

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Re: Coming back from the dead......

Post by Librarian » Sat Jun 04, 2005 6:29 pm

aintgottaclue wrote:Christianity isn't the only belief system that presupposes one Can come back from death.

Question: Is there any actual proof (theoretical or actual) that it is even POSSIBLE to be "resurrected?"
Resurrection? No. I'm using a definition of resurrection as "dead, irretrievably dead, beyond all medical science dead, washed up and decomposing in the sun dead".

Revived? Yup, quite a few cases on the books. Record holder so far is a drowning victim in an ice lake - 20 minutes.

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Revived....

Post by aintgottaclue » Sun Jun 05, 2005 11:17 am

Yes, lots of examples of "revival." [However, since the person reviving wasn't DEAD, that doesn't count. [-X ]

Librarian: You said, "Resurrection? No. I'm using a definition of resurrection as "dead, irretrievably dead, beyond all medical science dead, washed up and decomposing in the sun dead". "

Yeah, that's what I had in mind.....DEAD! [For example, if "Jesus" didn't arise from the DEAD, then Christianity has no foundation....he had to be DEAD, he had to lay for three days in the tomb, and then he had to RISE FROM DEATH......never mind ascending into heaven.] I am just wondering if such an action is even possible, in theory (never mind practice).....I, personally, don't think even "theory" provides a mechanism for returning from the "dead," but I could be wrong, and hence the question....for all I know there may BE a theory that covers it... :confused1:
Christians are irrational. I may not be a Christian, but at least I'm rational! (Well, most of the time, anyway.)

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the once and future King...

Post by dragonflydrummer » Sun Jun 05, 2005 2:57 pm

Aside from Elvis, it has never happened. 8-)
The spirit abides immovable; it beholds the infernal monsters swarm down upon it, and does not fear. (Eliphas Levi -- The Sixth Hour)

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Post by morgana » Sun Jun 05, 2005 6:38 pm

Well, Elvis and zombies, LOL! :lol:
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Re: Revived....

Post by Librarian » Sun Jun 05, 2005 7:32 pm

aintgottaclue wrote:Yes, lots of examples of "revival." [However, since the person reviving wasn't DEAD, that doesn't count. [-X ]

Librarian: You said, "Resurrection? No. I'm using a definition of resurrection as "dead, irretrievably dead, beyond all medical science dead, washed up and decomposing in the sun dead". "

Yeah, that's what I had in mind.....DEAD! [For example, if "Jesus" didn't arise from the DEAD, then Christianity has no foundation....he had to be DEAD, he had to lay for three days in the tomb, and then he had to RISE FROM DEATH......never mind ascending into heaven.] I am just wondering if such an action is even possible, in theory (never mind practice).....I, personally, don't think even "theory" provides a mechanism for returning from the "dead," but I could be wrong, and hence the question....for all I know there may BE a theory that covers it... :confused1:
Catatonia or catalepsy?

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Post by dragonflydrummer » Sun Jun 05, 2005 9:02 pm

Isn't there some type of drug or toxin that slows the body way down, to a death-like state? I think I read something about it having an application in Voudoin Zombie-making... I'm not sure about this. might have seen it in a comic-book or other unreliable source... :-?
The spirit abides immovable; it beholds the infernal monsters swarm down upon it, and does not fear. (Eliphas Levi -- The Sixth Hour)

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Post by Librarian » Sun Jun 05, 2005 10:37 pm

Yup - blowfish.

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blowfish?

Post by dragonflydrummer » Mon Jun 06, 2005 2:25 am

Prob'ly wasn't blowfish with the loaves at the Sermon on the Mount, or at the Last Supper -- I'm thinkin'... :lol:

(although one of those plastic xtian bumper fish looking kinda spikey, with "blowfish" written inside it might be fun...)
:fish:
The spirit abides immovable; it beholds the infernal monsters swarm down upon it, and does not fear. (Eliphas Levi -- The Sixth Hour)

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Catatonia/catalepsy

Post by aintgottaclue » Tue Jun 14, 2005 8:07 am

Nope, that doesn't count.....we're talking about DEAD here...as in REALLY dead! Kinda "dead and stinking" dead! :oops:

The thing is, if there was no "resurrection," then by the Christian's own admission, Christianity would be a farce. From what I can tell, all the actual "evidence" shows that:
1. Jesus was the illegitimate son of Mary and a Roman soldier named Pantera, and there are Jewish birth records to "prove" that.
2. The post-resurrection accounts of his reappearance likely are additions to the text of the Gospels, and from internal evidence Paul et al never considered him to be "divine" in the first place.
3. The story of the Roman soldiers "guarding the tomb" is found only in one Gospel and is likely an addition to the original text made to attempt to refute the Jewish claim that J.C. was a bastard child of Mary and said Roman soldier.
4. The laws of biology, chemistry and physics all prohibit a "resurrection" from taking place....when the brain "dies," that's it, you're toast...there is no "YOU" left to resurrect. "YOU" exist only as a minute to minute memory in your own mind, so to speak, and once the brain's electrochemical system shuts down/dies, there AIN'T NO YOU...the brain is just another decomposing organ.
Which, I guess, leaves the "supernatural," and THAT is where the Christians always go....and, of course one needs no "facts" to believe in the supernatural....it happened because God says so!!! [-o< Yeah, right! [-X

http://www.abrahamic-faith.com/shamoun/ ... jesus.html
I. Jesus' Birth
R. Shimeaon ben 'Azzai said: I found a genealogical roll in Jerusalem wherein was recorded, "Such-an-one is a bastard of an adulteress."

McDowell and Wilson state, on the authority of Joseph Klausner, that the phrase such-an-one "is used for Jesus in the Ammoraic period (i.e., fifth century period)." (McDowell & Wilson, p. 69)



According to the Jewish Tractate of Talmud, the Chagigah a certain person had a dream in which he saw the punishment of the damned. In the dream,

"He saw Mary the daughter of Heli amongst the shades..." (John Lightfoot, Commentary On the New Testament from the Talmud and Hebraica [Oxford University Press, 1859; with a second printing from Hendrickson Publishers Inc., 1995], vol. 1, p. v; vol. 3, p.55)

Compare this with Luke 3:23.

MISHNAH.[104b] If one writes on his flesh, he is culpable; He who scratches a mark on his flesh. He who scratches a mark on his flesh, [etc.] It was taught, R. Eliezar said to the sages: But did not Ben Stada bring forth witchcraft from Egypt by means of scratches [in the form of charms] upon his flesh? He was a fool, answered they, proof cannot be adduced from fools. [Was he then the son of Stada: surely he was the son of Pandira?- Said R. Hisda: The husband was Stada, the paramour was Pandira. But the husband was Pappos b. Judah?- his mother was Stada. But his mother was Miriam the hairdresser?- It is as we said in Pumbeditha: This is one has been unfaithful to (lit., 'turned away from'- satath da) her husband.] (Shabbath 104b)
R. Papa said: When the Mishnah states a MESITH IS A HEDYOT, it is only in respect of hiding witnesses. For it has been taught: And for all others for whom the Torah decrees death, witnesses are not hidden, excepting for this one. How is it done?- A light is lit in an inner chamber, the witnesses are hidden in an outer one [which is in darkness], so that they can see and hear him, but he cannot see them. Then the person he wishes to seduce says to him, "Tell me privately what thou hast proposed to me"; and he does so. Then he remonstrates; "But how shall we forsake our God in Heaven, and serve idols?" If he retracts, it is well. But if he answers: "It is our duty and seemly for us," the witnesses who were listening outside bring him to Beth din, and have him stoned. ["And thus they did to Ben Stada in Lydda, and they hung him on the even of Passover." Ben Stada was Ben Pandira. R. Hisda said: The husband was Stada, the paramour Pandira. But as not the husband Pappos b. Judah?-His mother's name was Stada. But his mother was Miriam, a dresser of woman's hair?-As they say in Pumpbaditha, This woman has turned away (satath da) from her husband, (i.e. committed adultery).] (Morey, p. 6)



Morey quotes from the Soncino edition of the Babylonian Talmud:

Footnote in Soncino: "Supposed by Tosah, to be the Mother of Jesus; cf. Shab. 104b in the earlier uncensored editions. Her description Megaddela (hairdresser) is connected by some with the name of Mary Magdalene whose name was confused with the name of Mary, the mother of Jesus." (Ibid., p. 7)



Some scholars also see an allusion to the virgin birth of Christ in the term, "son of Pandira." This is due to the fact that "Pandira" seems to be a play on the Greek word for virgin, parthenos, the very term used in the Gospels of Matthew and Luke when recording Jesus' virgin birth. McDowell & Wilson report:

"... Scholars have debated at length how Jesus came to have this name (i.e., ben Pandira) attached to his. Strauss thought it was from the Greek word pentheros, meaning 'son-in-law.' Klausner and Bruce accept the position that panthera is a corruption of the Greek parthenos meaning 'virgin.' Klausner says, 'The Jews constantly heard that the Christians (the majority of whom spoke Greek from the earliest times) called Jesus by the name "Son of the Virgin"... and so, in mockery, they called him Ben ha-Pantera, i.e., "son of the leopard."'... The theory most sensational but least accepted by serious scholars was dramatized by the discovery of a first century tombstone at Bingerbruck, Germany. The inscription read, 'Tiberius Julius Abdes Pantera, an archer, native of Sidon, Phoenicia, who in 9 c.e. was transferred to service in Germany.'... This discovery fueled the fire of the theory that Jesus was the illegitimate son of Mary and the soldier, Panthera. Eve n Origen writes that his opponent, Celsus, in circa A.D. 178, said that he heard from a Jew that 'Miriam' had become pregnant by 'Pantheras,' a Roman soldier; was divorced by her husband, and bore Jesus in secret.
"If 'Pantheras' were a unique name, the theory of Mary's pregnancy by the Roman soldier might be more attractive to scholars. But Adolf Deissman, the early twentieth-century German New Testament scholar, verified, by first century inscriptions, 'with absolute certainty that Panthera was not an invention of Jewish scoffers, but a widespread name among the ancients.'... Rabbi and Professor Morris Goldstein comments that it was as common as the names Wolf or Fox today. He comments further:




It is noteworthy that Origin himself is credited with the tradition that Panther was the appellation of James (Jacob), the father of Jospeh, the father of Jesus... So, too, Andrew of Crete, John of Damascus, Epiphanius the Monk, and the author of Andronicus of Constantinople's Dialogue Against the Jews, name Panther as an ancestor of Jesus...
"Jesus being called by his grandfather's name would also have agreed with a statement in the Talmud permitting this practice. Whereas Christian tradition identified Jesus by his home town, Jewish tradition, having a greater concern for genealogical identification, seems to have preferred this method of identifying Jesus. Goldstein presents more evidence to argue the case convincingly." (McDowell & Wilson, pp. 66-67)
Christians are irrational. I may not be a Christian, but at least I'm rational! (Well, most of the time, anyway.)

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Yow!

Post by dragonflydrummer » Tue Jun 14, 2005 8:40 pm

Thanks for the scholarly link & point-of-view ! :study:
The spirit abides immovable; it beholds the infernal monsters swarm down upon it, and does not fear. (Eliphas Levi -- The Sixth Hour)

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Other references

Post by aintgottaclue » Wed Jun 15, 2005 5:39 am

That's not the only reference....it seems pretty well established there actually IS a Jewish record of J.C.'s birth, and apparently he WAS a "bastard child," though I doubt any Christian would ever admit that.
Internal Biblical evidence also suggests that Paul (and others) considered him to be "human," of human parentage, not divine or some sort of "god-man." Looks to me like what we have is a "Jesus" that was mythologized in the first/second century, and by the late third century had amazingly turned into a "god." (Or part of a god, if you consider the "trinity.")
Christians are irrational. I may not be a Christian, but at least I'm rational! (Well, most of the time, anyway.)

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The Trinity or...

Post by dragonflydrummer » Wed Jun 15, 2005 12:05 pm

Looks to me like what we have is a "Jesus" that was mythologized in the first/second century, and by the late third century had amazingly turned into a "god." (Or part of a god, if you consider the "trinity.")
Lately I've been more into the Fantastic Four, but hey -- it'd could have been gamma rays that gave him his super-human powers. :lol:

Thanks for the gentle correction...
The spirit abides immovable; it beholds the infernal monsters swarm down upon it, and does not fear. (Eliphas Levi -- The Sixth Hour)

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Re: The Trinity or...

Post by aintgottaclue » Wed Jun 15, 2005 2:12 pm

dragonflydrummer wrote:
Looks to me like what we have is a "Jesus" that was mythologized in the first/second century, and by the late third century had amazingly turned into a "god." (Or part of a god, if you consider the "trinity.")
Lately I've been more into the Fantastic Four, but hey -- it'd could have been gamma rays that gave him his super-human powers. :lol:

Thanks for the gentle correction...

Uhhhhh, well, at the risk of exposing why they call me "aintgottaclue," um, what correction?? :sad11: You mean the catatonia/catalepsy thing?
There are those who do maintain that is what happened (hell, it may be a good theory, for all I know), and that he didn't really "die," but IF that were true, then his "nondeath" wouldn't have meant doodley-squat, so the normal assumption is that he was REALLY "dead."

I stress "assumption," however, as there is just about as much evidence for his NONexistence as there is for his EXISTENCE! Kind of a toss-up!
http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/
http://home1.gte.net/deleyd/religion/appendixd.html
http://www.jesuspuzzle.com/
Christians are irrational. I may not be a Christian, but at least I'm rational! (Well, most of the time, anyway.)

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