Evolution or Creation?

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Ragnar
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Post by Ragnar » Sun Aug 14, 2005 10:44 am

The Jews have a very precise understanding of the "allogorical". It is not by accident that Quabala and Freemasonary stemed from Jewish tradition. Wheras the other two are so weak in thier faith that they have to grasp at the straw of "literalism" in their "holy texts". Basicaly no imagination is the problem.
I do not have a problem with a school teaching "creationism", so long as it stays in the "religious" lessons, from which the parent may withdraw the child. To teach it as part of science is bordering on the insane.

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Post by Rain ForestMoon » Mon Aug 15, 2005 1:32 am

Ragnar wrote:... Basicaly no imagination is the problem....
Exactlly. You put my thoughts into words.

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Post by Rain ForestMoon » Mon Aug 15, 2005 1:37 am

Ragnar wrote: I do not have a problem with a school teaching "creationism", so long as it stays in the "religious" lessons, from which the parent may withdraw the child. To teach it as part of science is bordering on the insane.
Living in a secular country like Australia (no "church tax" here) I actually would have a problem with that.
Why should public money be spent on promoting religion, any religion?

(Of course I agree that teaching it as part of a science course is .... insane... yes, I think that is the correct word.)

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Post by dragonflydrummer » Mon Aug 15, 2005 8:02 am

runewulf writes:
without cause, there could never have been evolution, heck, no creation at all, therefore, something caused both creation and evolution, could be diety/ies, could be something else, although some kinda divine spark is what makes sense, when you think about the void, zippo, then "BANG!"... what would cause an empty void to go "BANG!"?
I just don't understand why the universe could not simply have always been. We seem to view everything through the filter of our own finite-ness, conclude that everything else is finite, and then say: "There you go -- absolute proof that some form of Deity exists, otherwise who could have created it all?" I'm thinking the Universe may have just as well have existed in some form or other prior to the Big Bang. I mean -- WHY NOT?

Somehow thinking that it has always been makes it all the more wondrous for me... :smt101 :smt119 :smt120
The spirit abides immovable; it beholds the infernal monsters swarm down upon it, and does not fear. (Eliphas Levi -- The Sixth Hour)

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Post by Ragnar » Mon Aug 15, 2005 9:00 am

Dragon fly drummer wrote;
I just don't understand why the universe could not simply have always been.

We know from doppler radiation that the universe, this one at least has "age". Therefore, logicaly, it must have had a begining. Discuss. (personaly, I am allways dissapointed to find that the universe is so small. But I think we must re- asses "universe" as meaning "every thing". I believe, like galaxys, and gallaxy clusters. There are "universes" racing away from each other, and galaxys are but a miniature painting of the greater.)

Rain forest moon (still an excellently provocative name by the way) Wrote;
Why should public money be spent on promoting religion, any religion?

I am not suggesting promoting religion. But kids must have a grasp of the big bad world. (Was it Napoleon that said "know youre enemys"?) My idea of R.E. is that "different peoples have different beliefs. here is a description of a few, here is the method to find out more. Go away and make your own minds up".

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Post by morgana » Mon Aug 15, 2005 1:13 pm

See I have to agree with Rainforest here. Public schools should absolutely not teach religion. It's not up to them. If the parents want their kids to have religious beliefs then they should be the ones to teach them, not the school. Especially here in America and other countries where Christianity is the dominant religion. The teachers and probably a large majority of parents would hold the belief that ONLY Christianity should be taught, and would therefore cater their classes to their beliefs.
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Post by dragonflydrummer » Mon Aug 15, 2005 9:57 pm

I think the whole question of religious mind-control in the elementary and secondary schools is a particularly scarey one. Common sense tells me that an increase in inter-cultural awareness is what is necessary these days. A sense that the other person's point of view is a valid one if it harms no-one is particularly rational given world over-population, and trans-cultural migration.

The monotheistic point-of-view -- which is pretty much "My Way or the Highway..." just seems like it's going to endorse a lot of conflict and wars.
:compress: :bounce: :compress: :bounce: :compress: :bounce: :roll:
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Post by Ragnar » Tue Aug 16, 2005 8:03 am

Dragonfly Drummer wrote;
Common sense tells me that an increase in inter-cultural awareness is what is necessary these days.

Allthough I agree that it is to easy for these classes to be taken over by a "belief system", I still wonder how many parents are in a possition to be able to teach about other cultures?
Who is to do it if not the schools?

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Post by dragonflydrummer » Wed Aug 17, 2005 6:32 am

It's a puzzle for certain -- how to teach overviews in culture -- which of course involves spiritual beliefs & religion, without immersing the students in some clap-trap like Creationism (or is it Unintelligible Design?). I guess it would involve having teachers who themselves were not Evangelists or whatever their counterparts are called in other cultures...

I know I'm an idealist, but it would be great if there would come a time when people stopped killing each other over who's Imaginary Friend was the true One... flyaway:
The spirit abides immovable; it beholds the infernal monsters swarm down upon it, and does not fear. (Eliphas Levi -- The Sixth Hour)

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Post by Ragnar » Wed Aug 17, 2005 8:20 am

Creationism (or is it Unintelligible Design?)

Hmm... Comedy work shops?

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Post by dragonflydrummer » Wed Aug 17, 2005 9:29 am

Even funnier is Bible Biology -- and then of course they want to genetically modify everything and do cloning based on THAT strange beast ! [-o<
The spirit abides immovable; it beholds the infernal monsters swarm down upon it, and does not fear. (Eliphas Levi -- The Sixth Hour)

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Post by 2Crunchy » Wed Aug 17, 2005 11:26 am

dragonflydrummer wrote: I know I'm an idealist, but it would be great if there would come a time when people stopped killing each other over who's Imaginary Friend was the true One... flyaway:
:laughing3:
OK. That is just FUNNY! Why do you have to be so darned witty? Now I have to wipe the crackers off the monitor. #-o
Last edited by 2Crunchy on Wed Aug 17, 2005 11:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Ragnar » Wed Aug 17, 2005 11:28 am

Seems strange really. Ask them to clone dolly the damn lawnmower and they're all against that. Clone jesus, and they all want one for the dash board of their car.
Lisa, my wife, was on the way to visit me in Scotland once. On the plane she sat next to a muslim family who gave her a pamphlet. This was about "muslim biology". ......? Surely biology is biolo... oh, never mind. But what this booklet basically consisted of was things like; "A photograph of a sliced open tomatoe. The secret name for allah can be clearly seen as a pattern in the seeds". YEH... Right, O.K.
But this was been given to people to prove that science came from the Middle East. I do not doubt that they discovered things at the same time as every one else. Just because we did not write about astrology (we built things like stonehenge instead), because China was a closed society until well after Arab texts were well known, because the heiroglyphs of Egypt and the American continent could not be deciphered until recently, is no reason to suppose a photograph of a severely disembowled tomatoe, with judicious splashes of fibre tip pen, is the meaning to life, the Universe and every thing. We all know that is 42.
Sometimes I wonder at peoples gulibility.

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Post by dragonflydrummer » Thu Aug 18, 2005 7:09 am

I think it is very threatening to many people in a sort of basic way that the world has turned out to be quite different than the theology they've grown up believing tells them it is. They search for proof that what they've been told is more True than the things they actually see. The name of Allah in a tomato. The face of the Virgin in a peeling bill-board. A pagan pentacle in the cycles of the planet Venus. It's all good. Imagination is a good thing.

Now --if only they just would stop hurting other people who aren't so impressed with the "proof." :-(
The spirit abides immovable; it beholds the infernal monsters swarm down upon it, and does not fear. (Eliphas Levi -- The Sixth Hour)

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Post by 2Crunchy » Fri Aug 19, 2005 11:00 am

dragonflydrummer wrote:I think it is very threatening to many people in a sort of basic way that the world has turned out to be quite different than the theology they've grown up believing tells them it is. They search for proof that what they've been told is more True than the things they actually see.
Very insightful. I think you hit the nail on the head. That is why it often seems like people are grasping at straws when it comes to "proof" that their religion is the "right" one. They can be faced with a million reasons that proves otherwise, but one silly shaky piece of evidence will having them shouting about their proof. I don't really think the evidence proves anything. It is all how you interpret it and most people desperately want, even need validation for their spiritual beliefs, so they interpret things in ways that support that spirituality.
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