Evolution or Creation?

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Rain ForestMoon
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Post by Rain ForestMoon » Thu Apr 14, 2005 8:54 pm

Can I ask you a question, 2Crunchy?

Have you actually read Charles Darwin's "The Origin of Species"?

Come to think of it: Has ANYONE here actually read it?
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Post by RavenEyes » Fri Apr 15, 2005 9:16 am

Urghhhhh Origin of the Species.... had to read a condensed version for my palaeo class last year... is very long winded, but isn't that bad if you stick with it...

Am rambling, i know - been glued to my computer for five hours straight trying to type up my project.....
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Post by 2Crunchy » Fri Apr 15, 2005 5:45 pm

Hmmmmm. That is a very good point. I will admit that you've got the old wheels turning in my head. I should definitely read the book in order to create an informed opinion on the subject. I suppose a trip to the local library is in order.

After considering where I had gotten most of my information on the flaws of evolutionary theory, I realized most, if not all of it, came from Xtian sources. Of course they have a vested interest in disproving the theory so the info should be considered in that light I think.

I spent a big chunk of my life as a devout fundie. It's not always easy to break old ways of thinking.

I appreciate your challenge, by the way.... =D>
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evolution is crap.

Post by MuladHara » Sat Apr 16, 2005 6:55 am

that's just it. physical evolution, as put forward specifically by Darwin in <i>Origin of the Species</i> is a lot of hoowie.

The fossil evidence is not evidence as such, becuase to use it requires a catch 22: evolution is required to explain the fossil "changes" which are needed to prove evolution, which is needed to explain the fossil changes which requires....etcetera etcetera.

what the fossils show is alot of very similar animals. there is no proof that they were formed in the wombs of previous, different creatures. we have not EVER seen this happen, except in the case of hybrids like Mules, which are as everyone knows, sterile.

that they <i>seem</i> to be sequential in time, is coincidence and truly unprovable, because many fossils evade science for hundreds of years, and sometimes period, as with more intelligent animals that don't often fall into tarpits and so on.

as for the moths, that experiment was pure BS. as was the one where flies were "shown" to evolve an extra set of wings.

poppy-cock.

what's my view? I think that there was no sequntial chain of events, because time is illusion anyway. all events are current, whether they seem to us to be or not. witness particle physics. we've actually sent small small particles through time.

so really:

evolution COULD have happened, but doesn't seem to happening right now. No new species are being born, regardless of mutation and change in current species. NO NEW SPECIES ARE BEING BORN FROM CURRENT SPECIES, and surviving anyway..heh.

so either evolution has entirely stopped acting physically, and has simply started to effect the psychical sphere, which I beleive to an extent, or its just tripe.

more and more, as I research it, I find that the icons of evolution are a fraud, and that creationism was always tripe.

really I haven't found anything that really works for my brain yet.

I am tending towards mental entities exerting thought-pressure to change reality as needed for their purposes. or aliens. or both.

hell, even Human Evolution has been proven tripe.
Neanderthal was not even at all related to Cro Magnon, and was a direct competitior, we find that there were several several subspecies, smaller hominids that existed for quite some time including what are known as "hobbits' nowadays, where they found this entire civilization fossilized on an island in the pacific that was all very very small hominids.

in fact, hominids are pretty genocidal, it seems more and more that we were all co-existent at one point, then started wasting the others on a regular basis.
we're whats left.

Darwin was just theorizing. it's a terrible theory whioch has proven so far to be unprovable, and therefore false.

don't worship the science books.

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Post by Rain ForestMoon » Sat Apr 16, 2005 8:23 pm

2Crunchy wrote:
After considering where I had gotten most of my information on the flaws of evolutionary theory, I realized most, if not all of it, came from Xtian sources. Of course they have a vested interest in disproving the theory so the info should be considered in that light I think.=D>
Greetings,

2Crunchy, that is exactly what I thought when you talked about humans being descended from apes. Because that is the sort of mis-information christian fundamentalists spread, in order to make it easier for them to push their particular line.....

Be aware, though that when Raven Eyes called the book "long-winded" that is so totally true. My paperback copy runs to more than 450 pages of fairly small print.

Now I love reading ( I loved reading "A Suitable Boy" by Vikram Seth, which runs to nearly 1500 pages), but "The Origin of Species" is heavy going, but well worth it if that sort of thing interests you. I think there a number of reasons for the long-windedness: One would be that the text is nearly 150 years old. Another is probably that Charles Darwin trined as a Church of England Minister before he took up natural sciences. Now Church of England Ministers (or Anglican as we call them in Australia) are generally very nice people, in the sense that they tend to be "mainstream christians" rather than fundamentalists, but yes, I have found most of them to be rather "longwinded" even these days.

If you really live in the "bible belt" as you said in your intro post, it will be interesting to see if the book is actually available in the library or not.....

My study of plants and animals (especially their nutrition and health aspects - after all, I am a farmer) has opended my eyes to the fact that plants and animals are very similar organisms. I have come to believe (and that belief has nothing to do with Charles Darwin at all) that the "divine spark of life" happened just once, and that all living organisms are the result of that spark - we are all, from humans to weeds to bacteria, the children of the divine.

I would have a lot more to say about fundamentalists (not just religious ones) but this is not the place for it - what's more the rains have stopped and our soil has dried out enough to resume planting garlic, so, yes, I am a bit busy on the farm.......


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Re: evolution is crap.

Post by Rain ForestMoon » Sat Apr 16, 2005 8:32 pm

MuladHara wrote:hell, even Human Evolution has been proven tripe.
Neanderthal was not even at all related to Cro Magnon, and was a direct competitior, we find that there were several several subspecies, smaller hominids that existed for quite some time including what are known as "hobbits' nowadays, where they found this entire civilization fossilized on an island in the pacific that was all very very small hominids.

in fact, hominids are pretty genocidal, it seems more and more that we were all co-existent at one point, then started wasting the others on a regular basis.
we're whats left.

<b>~sMg~</b>
Greetings,

Your words, MuladHara, are a "textbook example" of evolutionary theory in practice. Charles Darwin would be proud of you. (Where do you think "survival of the fittest" came from?)

Can I ask you the question as well: Have you read "The Origin of Species", and if you did, do you think you understood it?

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Re: evolution is crap.

Post by RavenEyes » Sun Apr 17, 2005 1:25 am

MuladHara wrote:evolution COULD have happened, but doesn't seem to happening right now. No new species are being born, regardless of mutation and change in current species. NO NEW SPECIES ARE BEING BORN FROM CURRENT SPECIES, and surviving anyway..heh.
Though you can't really prove this... much of evolution happens so slowly that it can't necessarily be seen to be happening at the time.

And it's true, there are gaps in the fossil record, but there are also large expanses of rock, spanning millions of years of geological history, which do provide a continual fossil record for that time....

Anyway, I'm a firm believer that theories should be debated, and if you don't believe in evolution, fair enough... :-D
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Re: evolution is crap.

Post by Librarian » Sun Apr 17, 2005 12:10 pm

MuladHara wrote:evolution COULD have happened, but doesn't seem to happening right now. No new species are being born, regardless of mutation and change in current species. NO NEW SPECIES ARE BEING BORN FROM CURRENT SPECIES, and surviving anyway..heh.
And you have seen how many millions of years pass in your lifetime?

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Post by Rain ForestMoon » Mon Apr 18, 2005 1:59 am

Greetings again,

With the benefit of hindsight, if I had been able to anticipate that this degenerates into a discussion about evolutionary theory, I would have worded my original post somewhat different.

What I had intended to find out is how those of us who do not believe in some sort of evolution believe that the wold around us (and including us) came to be. Presumably not along the lines of the bible "genesis" lines, otherwise one would be jew and/or christian, not a pagan. So I wonder if anyone could share their particular view of creation.

This is said in the full knowledge that there are no right or wrong answers or beliefs. There is never an absolute truth on anything, and what my be true for one person may not be so for another.

So, If there is anyone who would like to share their take on creation, I would really appreciate it.

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Post by MuladHara » Mon Apr 18, 2005 1:10 pm

yes well. sorry :oops:

I think it was an unfolding manifestation, evolution-like, but controlled by entities of a noncorporeal nature/energy nature.

I think consciousness is one of the higher levels of energy, and that it causes matter/energy to shift through its various states like heat makes water into ice, liquid, gas, etcetera.. but along a chaos pattern. fractals, you know.
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Post by dragonflydrummer » Mon Apr 25, 2005 7:22 pm

MuladHara wrote:
...evolution COULD have happened, but doesn't seem to happening right now.
I see it happening all around me all the time. Continual mutations and adaptions on the viral & bacterial levels. Animals and birds adapting to Urban environments. Humans adapting to the fairly new environment brought on by electric lights which allow us to stay awake working all night, not to mention the vast array of electronic information. Sharks honing their electronic sensors to determine the difference between metal dragged in the water and flesh. Multitudes more...


The way I see it -- Life adapts; and over time these adaptations are reflected as structural changes in the various species. If you look around you -- it's always happening. :alien:
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Post by fatalistic_pessimism » Mon May 09, 2005 5:02 pm

I personally believe in both evolution and creation, though the former much more than the latter. I find that the scientific evidence that exists today is overwhelmingly in favour of evolution, and, in my point of view, it is very hard to dismiss (or impossible to dismiss even). I also believe that it makes sense for species to evolve, because static states of being are the states of being that are most easily injured. Just as an individual must be flexible and evolve mentally, emotionally, and intellectually within their own lifetime, a strain of DNA must do so as well to sustain its own existence.

How creation exists in this scheme is that, at one point, there was nothing. I am confident to say that in order for there to be something, there must have first been nothing. How everything was created is of no particular interest of mine, but I do believe that there must have been a moment that in the mist of nothing, there was something. That is creation.

As my biology teacher once said, the learning of evolution is not wrong. It is much like going to a restaurant, liking a dish, and wanting to know of the recipe. However, just because you know of the recipe, does not mean that the chef did not exist.

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Post by Stormy » Mon May 09, 2005 7:24 pm

The local biome always responds to pollution. A famous example of how an individual species has responded to a specific kind of pollution is what is referred to as industrial melanism. Coal combustion fueled the early years of the industrial revolution in England during the late 1800s. The soot from coal burning covered the light colored bark of the trees in areas surrounding the factories. The Peppered Moth (Biston betularia) has two morphs in England and Germany. A white morph had small black flecks on its wings and was most common in areas with minimal pollution. A dark morph of the Peppered Moth predominated in other areas, where the black soot from the factories covered the light colored bark.

Entomologists (biologists who study insects) later demonstrated that the mechanism for this shift was natural selection. Birds preferentially fed on those forms that stood out on the trees on which they rest. If white bark was most common, then the black morph was heavily preyed upon and vice versa.

In this way, pollution can change the genetic composition of the species. When this intraspecific change is combined with all the other effects of pollution that lead to habitat degradation (e.g., oil spills, destruction of land, displacement of species, etc.), pollution can affect not only intraspecific variation, but also the species composition of communities and biomes. The different types of pollution influence different levels of the ecological hierarchy: some impact only on a local level (sound, light, and thermal pollution) while others, like gas pollution, have global consequences.
Yes, evolution is occuring all the time - adaptation, etc. However, that doesn't mean that there isn't a higher hand involved in setting it in motion ;)

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Post by Librarian » Mon May 09, 2005 9:02 pm

Darwin's theory simply stated that no deity s required to explain the diversity of species.

It never said there was no deity, just one isn't required.

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Post by dragonflydrummer » Mon May 09, 2005 10:36 pm

fatalistic_pessimism said:
How creation exists in this scheme is that, at one point, there was nothing. I am confident to say that in order for there to be something, there must have first been nothing.
I'm not sure I follow you. Why couldn't there just always have been something? :roll:
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