Evolution or Creation?

Discussions of all things pagan and neo-pagan.
User avatar
Rain ForestMoon
Level 11
Level 11
Posts: 314
Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2004 2:13 am
Location: Australia
Contact:

Evolution or Creation?

Post by Rain ForestMoon » Wed Apr 13, 2005 3:28 am

Greetings,

Within your pagan belief, do you incorporate evolution, or do you believe in creation.

If your answer is creation, can you please give a brief outline of creation as you see it (obviously, being a Pagan, this would not be the Jewish/Christian story of creation).

I will show my cards up-front here and say that as far as I am concerned the evidence for Evolution is un-disputable, and I have no problem at all with that within my Pagan belief system (if system is the word to use here).

I am very much interested what range of views there exist on this subject within this Pagan community.

Blessings
RainForestMoon

"Excess of anything is bad, but especially the excess of Moderation"

"AQUILA NON CAPIT MUSCAS'

User avatar
Kystar
Level 57
Level 57
Posts: 1684
Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 7:46 am
Location: White Oak, PA
Zodiac: Cancer
Contact:

Post by Kystar » Wed Apr 13, 2005 4:50 am

I'm an odd egg, because I believe in Divine-triggered evolution.

The Divine created the building blocks of all life, then wandered away a bit to see where things will go.

I wonder what that would be called, hmmm
You say "Witch" like it's a bad thing!

User avatar
Vetle
Level 4
Level 4
Posts: 101
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2005 10:50 pm
Location: Los Angeles, California
Contact:

Post by Vetle » Wed Apr 13, 2005 6:32 am

As strong as I may be in my faith, I will never dispute science. I believe there is a divine aspect to evolution (much like Kystar) but I don't think that the gods just pointed a magick wand one day and out sprouted humanity from the ground. Furthermore, I have a more wiccan theory of divinity so it's a bit harder for me to believe in something like creationism. I believe that the All (or whichever name you prefer to use) made some careful calculations then wound up the universe and let go. Everything else sprung from that big bang. After that, it's science all the way for me.
"I just hope angels in the forest
Saw me praying in my own soul
Death is unfair - That's real pain
Remoun you...Am I almost dead?
I miss my hope; My will to live
My last farewell forever, all alone"

-Anita Auglend

User avatar
Ever-Pagan
Level 1
Level 1
Posts: 15
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 6:12 pm
Location: North Carolina
Contact:

Post by Ever-Pagan » Wed Apr 13, 2005 10:26 am

If we accept the belief that Nature is intelligent - that Life, despite whatever its innate level of sentience, is harmonized and organized - we have little choice than to give credit to a Creator. To suggest otherwise is to suggest that the Goddess Herself evolved and therefore had less-than-divine control over Her realm of the natural.

From the point of view of physics, it is quite possible that energy can manifest itself as matter: scientests at Stanford accomplished the feat in 1998. Divine Intelligence (God) would merely have to focus Itself in a fairly simple manner to transfer part of Itself into physical matter. Once the physical domain of creation was in place, bringing man (and other Life) out of that creation was the next logical step. Whether that 'birth' occurred over a long peiod of time or through immediate creation is debatable. The androgynous Creator separated Masculine and Feminine (similar to the Biblical story of Eve's origins): God gives us life, Goddess nurtures and provides for us.

IMO, the Bible story of creation is not so farfetched (beyond the belief that Adam was a real man and Eve was his true wife); the story is quite a good metaphor for the origins of man (fitting, since many religions have similar or equal creation stories of their own).

Perhaps my point of view is similar to Kystar's. Then again, I might be completely off the Pagan track with my views.
Jesus is coming back. And boy, is he PISSED!

User avatar
Luciferish
Level 2
Level 2
Posts: 39
Joined: Sun Jun 22, 2003 3:32 pm
Location: Some say its hell, I think its nice.
Contact:

Post by Luciferish » Wed Apr 13, 2005 10:42 am

The thing that sticks in my craw about the whole creation v.s. evolution debate is simply this.

Creation is still in progress... Its not done, evolution is the creative process in action, the time table is what confuses us. We should not ask if the Divine created everything, as religious people that should be a given. What we should be asking is what are they creating? Certainly the human race and all other spieces are just stepping stones to something, but what we don't know. It is the destiny of all things to grow, change and evolve, on all levels.
Even the devil's got a lawyer, would you like my card?



Est nullum problema tantum ut usu vis maximae idonei expediri non possit.

User avatar
Raven
Level 4
Level 4
Posts: 105
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2003 3:14 pm
Location: Georgia- want some squirrel?
Contact:

Post by Raven » Wed Apr 13, 2005 12:52 pm

I like that theory Luciferish.

My theory goes along with Kystar's (appears you're not so odd afterall)
I think that devine forces lie behind evolution, or at least built a system for it.

Have you ever taken an in-depth look at exactly how DNA works? Its one of the most intricate and finite systems ive ever seen. Something like that could not possible just come from nothing, it had to have been created by SOMETHING.
Image

User avatar
morgana
Level 22
Level 22
Posts: 650
Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2003 7:42 am
Location: Florida
Contact:

Post by morgana » Wed Apr 13, 2005 7:34 pm

I tend to agree with Kystar and Luc about this, and Luc put it so well that I won't go any further. :-D
"Love like you've never been hurt."

User avatar
Rain ForestMoon
Level 11
Level 11
Posts: 314
Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2004 2:13 am
Location: Australia
Contact:

Post by Rain ForestMoon » Wed Apr 13, 2005 7:51 pm

Kystar wrote: I wonder what that would be called, hmmm
That, Kystar, is called .... Evolution.

And, yes, Luciferish, evolution is by definition "work in progress".


The impetus for putting up the question came from me reading an article "Life's greatest Inventions" in this week's edition of the "New Scientist".
RainForestMoon

"Excess of anything is bad, but especially the excess of Moderation"

"AQUILA NON CAPIT MUSCAS'

User avatar
Rain ForestMoon
Level 11
Level 11
Posts: 314
Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2004 2:13 am
Location: Australia
Contact:

Post by Rain ForestMoon » Wed Apr 13, 2005 7:57 pm

The theory of evolution does not claim that it all started from nothing.

The god of fundamentalist christians was invented some 6000 years ago, and evolution has been going on for a lot longer than that. So they prefer to not believe in evolution, rather than having to damit that it is not "their" god who flicked a switch some 6000 years ago.

I just thought I'd clarify this point.
RainForestMoon

"Excess of anything is bad, but especially the excess of Moderation"

"AQUILA NON CAPIT MUSCAS'

User avatar
Kystar
Level 57
Level 57
Posts: 1684
Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 7:46 am
Location: White Oak, PA
Zodiac: Cancer
Contact:

Post by Kystar » Wed Apr 13, 2005 7:59 pm

Rain ForestMoon wrote:
That, Kystar, is called .... Evolution.
Well, see I wasn't classifing it as simply Evolution because when I was in biology and other sciences, they went over every other reasoning behind HOW evolution got started BESIDES a Creator...and thus I was under the impression that Evolutional Theory doesn't include the concept of a Creator STARTING the process...that Creationism or Intelligent Design was the theory that covered that...so I was simply stating that I didn't think my beliefs fell exactly under the Evolution Theory.
You say "Witch" like it's a bad thing!

User avatar
Ever-Pagan
Level 1
Level 1
Posts: 15
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 6:12 pm
Location: North Carolina
Contact:

Post by Ever-Pagan » Thu Apr 14, 2005 4:48 am

Hard to dispute anything Luciferish said. According to evolutionary theory, change takes place slowly; thus, it would be impossible in our lifetimes to notice whatever change is occuring. How nice (divine?) it would be to be able to look across ages past and observe the progression of change as one sees a picture in a book.

Time can be so inconvenient.
Jesus is coming back. And boy, is he PISSED!

User avatar
2Crunchy
Level 3
Level 3
Posts: 65
Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2005 9:49 am
Location: atop a pile of dirty laundry
Contact:

Re: Evolution or Creation?

Post by 2Crunchy » Thu Apr 14, 2005 6:21 am

Rain ForestMoon wrote:Greetings,

as far as I am concerned the evidence for Evolution is un-disputable, and I have no problem at all with that within my Pagan belief system
I'm going to jump right in here...

Actually evolution is rather disputable. There is plenty of scientific evidence that questions the validity of the theory at least in it's accepted form. There are a lot of incongruities in the fossil record.

The field of science has turned into a religious system of it's own, excommunicating scientist that question or test accepted views, sweeping evidence under the rug that doesn't fit their view of the universe. That sounds a lot like the history of the church, doesn't it? Let's not forget that evolution is a THEORY and while it is true that it is rather widely accepted, it is still nothing more than that. I just think there are far too many holes in the theory to accept it blindly. I am going to need a lot more hard evidence. Science hasn't provided me with any as of yet.
Come to the Dark Side.....
We have cookies! :)

User avatar
Jennicat
Level 2
Level 2
Posts: 41
Joined: Tue Jun 24, 2003 12:50 pm
Location: California
Contact:

Post by Jennicat » Thu Apr 14, 2005 11:46 am

:-D Ahhhh... =D> some things never change... ;) as usual, Luc brings about questions out of questions! I for one love this about you, Luc, keeps me thinking! :-D growing, \:D/ changing… =D> evolving. :-D

For me, I believe in evolution as a tool for creation. ;)

I recently had Johovah’s Witnesses visit me on a nice Sunday morning, I love it when they knock on my door. :-D Hours of fun and eye opening , mind boggling entertainment and if I am lucky to get the open minded ones to have a little intelligent spiritual discussion to start my day. This Sunday was such a day. \:D/YAY! \:D/

Anyhoo… :roll: during our hour long conversation he brought up creation and how he believed that “GOD” created a lush earth and then dinosaurs to sort of “manicure” it (i.e. cure the earth as to be fit for human life) also saying that it is scientifically known that we as humans only use 10% (if that) of our brains… his point? That he felt that human beings were the “end result” to “GOD’s” ultimate creation. :-k

I disagreed, politely of course. ;)

I bring this up only to make a stronger point about what Luc had said about creation being a process in the works. No one person knows the end result to anything and I think it extremely arrogant to assume that human beings are the end all of life in the vast universe, just as I believe the same of the beginning of such a creation. [-(

“What we should be asking is what are they creating? Certainly the human race and all other species are just stepping stones to something, but what we don't know. It is the destiny of all things to grow, change and evolve, on all levels.”

I agree with you that creation is still in process of happening but, for me, [-X I would prefer not to question as to “what” the PTB’s may be creating and just enjoy \:D/ what has been created and is being created in the moment. =D> I have already come to terms with an answer to the question of “why” creation is happening, for myself. ;)

Famous question: Why climb Mt Everest? :-k
Infamous answer: Because it’s there! :!:

The same can be asked and answered.
Why create?
Because we can.

:-D

Light and Laughter,
The Cat
:cat:
Always remember,

you're unique...

Just like everyone else!

User avatar
Rain ForestMoon
Level 11
Level 11
Posts: 314
Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2004 2:13 am
Location: Australia
Contact:

Re: Evolution or Creation?

Post by Rain ForestMoon » Thu Apr 14, 2005 5:12 pm

2Crunchy wrote:
Actually evolution is rather disputable. There is plenty of scientific evidence that questions the validity of the theory at least in it's accepted form. There are a lot of incongruities in the fossil record.
Greetings,

There is a lot more to evolution than fossils (which are, by their very nature only glimpses into the past).
For instance, Every time a species goes extinct that is the process of evolution at work: A species disappears because it is not able to adapt successfully to a changed environment. And there have been quite a number that have gone that way in my own lifetime.

And true, there may be scientific evidence that question the validity of evolutionary theory...... just as there is also scientific evidence that questions the validity of the theory that smoking is bad for your health (just look at the studies funded by the tobacco industry).


Having said that I would like to say that it is not in my nature (nor is it ever my intention) to try to get others to believe something just because I believe it to be so.

Blessings
RainForestMoon

"Excess of anything is bad, but especially the excess of Moderation"

"AQUILA NON CAPIT MUSCAS'

User avatar
2Crunchy
Level 3
Level 3
Posts: 65
Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2005 9:49 am
Location: atop a pile of dirty laundry
Contact:

Post by 2Crunchy » Thu Apr 14, 2005 6:41 pm

I agree that there is a lot more than the fossil record and that it provides only a glimpse into the past. I also agree that when a species dies out it is part of the evolutionary process. Just like adaptation. For instance the prominent color of some moths changing in Great Britain because the smog has stained the trees. It's not that the moths have changed colors. There were always two color varieties. But after the smog stains, lighter colored moths were easier prey for birds and such because they no longer blended in with their surroundings. This is an example of micro-evolution. I doubt anyone with good sense would argue the existence of this type of evolution. There is just too much in the way of cold hard facts to dispute it.

The problem I have is with macro-evolution. Something totally new and different developing out of something else. For example, humans evolving from apes. There just doesn't really seem to be enough evidence to convince me of this happening.

I am not trying to convince anyone to my way of thinking either, by the way. Just stating my opinion and relating why I think the way I do, nothing more. :-D
Come to the Dark Side.....
We have cookies! :)

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests