Difference between Religion and Spirituality?

Discussions of all things pagan and neo-pagan.
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Ragnar
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Post by Ragnar » Thu Apr 28, 2005 1:28 am

Hej you lot,
Dragon fly drummer, in your answer to my last, I agree with you totaly.
As to Rain Forest Moon. Aye, well, I did not say war did not exist, I said RELIGIOUS war. The battles between the Romans and Jews was as a result of the Jews fighting for their freedom as a PEOPLE, not a religion. Similar to the claims of todays Israel.
As to the idea of a discussion on nazi/religion. "Dieties" where the leaders, or one little Austrian B*s*r* in particular.
They also stole the Viking traditions, hence in most of Europe the sun wheel/swastika is now banned totaly. For more see my "A warning to any one still in command" on this web site. Hitler and, particularly Himmler, indeed viewed the future as an "Honorable knights of the SS". The castle in Wewelsburg was turned into a kind of nazi "king Arthurs court" by Himmler. He also funded things which make Indiana Jones not so much of a joke any more. The basis of the film, i.e, the nazi plunder of archeological sites and the search for the Ark of the covenant are true! There was a niche at Wewelsburg ready set up for it! As to whether you think it was a VALID religion is the only possible discussion.
As far a "valid" goes, in a philosophical look, yes, it fulfilled all the paramaters to be described as a religion. If you read "valid" as "moraly acceptable" any one that sais "yes" may one day meet my nice "little" battle axe.

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who's zooming whom too...

Post by dragonflydrummer » Thu Apr 28, 2005 7:18 am

Ragnar --

I didn't realize that the Nazis adopted such an esoteric way of thinking about their "philosophy" -- so at least in their minds they were a religion. Would you say that they were Pagan?
(I'll pass on the battle-ax viewing thanks....):euuuh:


Comrade Rain ForestMoon--

I'd have to say the Romans persecuted everybody -- even each other. In spite of the fact that they inherited (and altered) the Greek city states' pantheon, they were pretty much about being extremely busy and subjugating the world. The early Xtians refused to be assimilated, so like others who didn't 'dummy-up' to Rome they were given a job in the circus as an opening act for the gladiators... In spite of my wanting to say this was a special circumstance, I guess I'm forced to agree. At that time the Pagans were zoomin' the Xtians.:crybaby::fouet:


I'll be whistlin' the Internationale this May Day myself... :ctf2:
The spirit abides immovable; it beholds the infernal monsters swarm down upon it, and does not fear. (Eliphas Levi -- The Sixth Hour)

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Post by Ragnar » Thu Apr 28, 2005 12:48 pm

Hello,
I suppose you could say they were pagan. In that, the end aim was to get back to the "old values" and live as a parody of the "Bauern" (lands people) of the Viking/Germanic times. But I would tend to describe what Himmler had in mind as more Alistair Crowleys "Magick" than the Farras have portrayed.
"Wache auf verdammte diese Erde..." (Internationale" in German). And "The peoples flag is deepest red, it shrouded oft our martyred dead...". Merry Walpurgis.

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"Wache auf verdammte diese Erde..."

Post by dragonflydrummer » Thu Apr 28, 2005 8:33 pm

"The peoples flag is deepest red, it shrouded oft our martyred dead...".
Somehow those words sound authentic coming from you, Ragnar.

I disagree with you that the Nazis were Pagan. I think they were Nihilists, but that is only my opinion. Let us for argument's sake say they were Pagan.

Okay now here's the thing -- and bear with me on this one so as not to misunderstand my meaning. Both in the case of the Roman persecution of the early Xtians, and in the case of the (Pagan)Nazis, there was no situation of bad faith. They worshipped their war-gods. Idealized their heroes, and were consistent in their actions -- as reprehensible and demonic as they seem to me.

On the other hand -- the Xtians, in pursuit of their ideals, have instigated wars, pograms, massacres, and crusades in total contradiction to the moral principles of their "faith." The most glaring of these contradictions: The foundational Commandment against Murder (in the Ten Commandments). Xtians in particular, have a convenient way -- through rationalization and denial -- of making oppression and murder an okay thing to do when it suits their purposes -- and to decide this on their knees, at the altar of a God they call "merciful." They do not walk their talk.

Now please don't misunderstand me here. I think ALL oppression, war, and murder is as wrong as wrong can be. But I am not splitting hairs here either. The "children of Abraham" have a way of committing the most atrocious acts in total contradiction to their own moral codes. And come away from it feeling more holy than ever before. Pagans, and other peoples who adhere to a warrior code of conduct which recognizes their acts -- at least are consistent with their own beliefs.

There are other instances of this, but the Mosaic prohibition against murder is the most glaring for me...

So it is not here a question of -- are the pagans as capable of evil as the Xtians? Given a patriarchal system -- I think any "faith" can be debased and cruel. What I am talking about is the almost hopeless display of repression and denial that the monotheists have shown throughout their reigns. This to me constitutes bad faith.

:angry4:

Happy Walpurgis and Beltane to you !
The spirit abides immovable; it beholds the infernal monsters swarm down upon it, and does not fear. (Eliphas Levi -- The Sixth Hour)

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Post by Ragnar » Fri Apr 29, 2005 5:17 am

Hej, hej,
I did not mean that nazi rubbish were "pagan" but they DID try to empathise with values that we would, today, call "Pagan". As I said, they where much more Crowley than "us".
I think that Pagans fight when attacked. That is, in my view, fair enough. It is the spirit (female spirit) of the Mother. In Norse/Viking/Asatru, Freya is NOT some one to be messed with! As with Nanna, Frigga, Idunna, etc.
This leads to a question of whether war can ever be "justified". I would say that the Second world war was more "justified" than most others. Ask the 10 million or so Jews, Gypsies, also Pagans. (the facts are not on the top of my head, but a famous "Runist", a collegue of the Crowley times, was sent to Dachau.(Marby?)) etc, that were saved in Europe. The fact that, for instance 55 million Russians died in the attempt, is not in question. The fact is, that WWII, came from many different causes, not to say the least that, I think, it was a "get even" for WWI. To leave Hitler to his own means would have lead to how many murders? That was not war that was destruction of the innocent. Against which, as a Norse Heathen, I am sworn.
We MUST fight for our life. For us "Paganism" IS our life.
I am not advocating war, but we will not accept that, when our families, land, beliefs, are attacked, we sit down and "talk nicely" with the likes of Stalin and Hitler.

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Post by dragonflydrummer » Fri Apr 29, 2005 8:40 pm

RAGNAR said:
I think that Pagans fight when attacked. That is, in my view, fair enough. It is the spirit (female spirit) of the Mother. In Norse/Viking/Asatru, Freya is NOT some one to be messed with! As with Nanna, Frigga, Idunna, etc.
I'm certainly with you on this. The spirit of the Mother is nothing to mess with. I think the world would be a whole lot better off if men would just hand over the reins of power to women now. Men have screwed everything up for millenia. It's time to "get real", and let "Mommy" fix it.

I think most rational people would defend their loved ones with their lives. I wasn't suggesting that there is anything wrong in that.

And I agree with you. Hitler was bent on genocide.
Genocide is not war.

I'm not that familiar with Crowley's ideas. What makes you say the nazis were more like him, than pagan?

(by the way -- your English is quite good...)

:brave:
The spirit abides immovable; it beholds the infernal monsters swarm down upon it, and does not fear. (Eliphas Levi -- The Sixth Hour)

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Post by Ragnar » Sat Apr 30, 2005 12:28 am

Aye,
although my family were Swedish/Sammi, and my wife is German, I was born and went to school in Scotland.
Crowley was mostly into Qubahla, or however it's spelt. Angels and demonology stuff. Everything that we are ACCUSED of doing really. (Why can I not get these damn italics to work?).
I have never tried to find him on the web, but I am sure he's there, somewhere. His book "Magick" was pretty infamous in U.K. as one of these that book clubs INSIST on sending to you, whether you ordered it or not. If you, in a state of tempory insanity, actually HAD ordered it, you normally got about three or four of them until you convinced the post that you didn't live there, or ANYwhere, any more.[/i]

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Post by dragonflydrummer » Sat Apr 30, 2005 8:56 am

That explains it then. It's the Calledonian schooling. heh heh. :good:

Well then -- getting back to the topic -- remember the topic? I'm not sure that Crowley was involved with Spirituality or Religion. The thelemites that have followed him have made a start at a Religion (the little I understand of it). But I think Crowley might have found that confining. I read, The Magical Diary of the Beast - 666, about a million years ago -- it was mostly a diary about doing sex-magic to gain money, power, & control, written shortly after they kicked him out of the Golden Dawn for pursuing the Baphomet. I don't think I got much of an idea of his thinking in that book though (except with his "little head").

I guess I can see where the nazis followed something like that. But I'd have to say it is not very pagan. I think they would have used any imagery that worked for their pursuit of world conquest. The Germanic heroes were convenient for them...
The spirit abides immovable; it beholds the infernal monsters swarm down upon it, and does not fear. (Eliphas Levi -- The Sixth Hour)

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Post by Ragnar » Sat Apr 30, 2005 12:59 pm

Hi, again,
Aye, that (your last) about sums it up.
Like with many governments, what they saw as "good for the people" was not always what they did themselves. They saw their perverted form of "paganism" as the "ideal German life", but only for the "peasents".
As Napoleon said, though, "never interupt your enemy when he is making a mistake". It came back on him.
I believe there was a pagan group that held a banishing ceremony on the white cliffs at Dover every day of the war.
Worked well enough for me. If I am not mistaken Crowley tried to get this stopped. Again, if not mistaken, Ian Flemming (James Bond) and Dennis wheatly were a part of the group. Not Crowley, the Pagan group.
I have heard that the order of Druids where the main instigators. They were on the gestapo "hitlist" if U.K. had fallen. Which, thanks to America, it didn't.

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whoa duuude...

Post by dragonflydrummer » Sat Apr 30, 2005 4:32 pm

Are you saying that there was a magical war going on at the same time as the material one? And are you implying Crowley was a nazi sympathizer? And Ian Fleming was a druid??? This is all news to me....
:blob:

(I'd say the Russians had a large hand in the nazis losing. The US helped.)
The spirit abides immovable; it beholds the infernal monsters swarm down upon it, and does not fear. (Eliphas Levi -- The Sixth Hour)

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Post by Ragnar » Sun May 01, 2005 2:28 am

Hello,
I do not know if it could be called a war, but the ceremonys deffinately took place on the cliffs of Dover. I do not know how many were "returned", but there was certainly a "magical" under ground movement supported by, particularly, Himmler.
Crowley was to some degree a nazi sympathiser, but I feel that this had its roots in his taste for nihilism. Do not forget, also that King Edward VIII was an early sympathiser with Hitler, and visited him quite often. It was not UNKNOWN in U.K.
Ian Fleming. I am pretty convinced that I read his name in this respect in books by, or similar to, Janet and Stuart Farra. He was deffinately a freemason, with interests in such. Not all freemasons have this interest, but a lot do.
I know because between 21 and 30 years old I was a member.
As to the Russians, aye, of course they played a large role, probably the largest. But that was replacing the swastika with the hammer and sickle, other than that there was not much difference. The Americans and British replaced the swastika with democracy. There own brand, but they did not carry out genocides and have Gulags, also millions of their prisoners of war and their own soldies (because they had been poluted by contact with Western powers) did not simply "dissapear" into Siberia. O.K. They had their bad points as well but it's all relative.

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May Day / Beltane '05

Post by dragonflydrummer » Sun May 01, 2005 3:02 am

Yes of course. Stalin was a monster -- and a very non-esoteric unmagical one at that. Still it is to the credit of the Russian people (and the others of the Soviets) that the nazis were stopped. They were not alone and probably could not have succeeded without their allies. But they did succeed, and paid an awful price -- both to Hitler and to Stalin. I'm sure there are evidences of Religion & Spirituality in that cataclysm -- but I'm not versed enough in their influence among the Red Army to go there.

I do find it amusing that Ian Fleming was probably a magical thinker. I will never see Agent 007 in quite the same light again. It would be fun to think of James Bond getting secret divinatory information, and receiving a new spell or enchantment to use as a weapon on his mission... :glasses7:

A Loving and Peaceful May Day to you...
The spirit abides immovable; it beholds the infernal monsters swarm down upon it, and does not fear. (Eliphas Levi -- The Sixth Hour)

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Post by Greensilver » Fri May 13, 2005 10:05 am

Here we go something straight outta the blue

Theres a crowly temple in kings lynn (where i live)

As in one he set up the house it was a part of is now a hotel and they do tours of the "temple" so said as it is in fact one room.

Cor me home town is intresting enough
I know an ash its name is Yggdrasil, high tree holy- It stands forever green above wyrds well.

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Post by dragonflydrummer » Sun May 15, 2005 10:21 pm

:-o That might be an amusing tour...
The spirit abides immovable; it beholds the infernal monsters swarm down upon it, and does not fear. (Eliphas Levi -- The Sixth Hour)

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