Born a sinner~how do you deal?

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Rain ForestMoon
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Post by Rain ForestMoon » Tue Aug 16, 2005 2:15 am

dragonflydrummer wrote:.... I think people -- given a loving and supportive environment to grow in are basically good.....
I agree with that. Call me an eternal optimist, or whatever, but I believe that people are basically good.

Sure, if you have a system that treats people cruelly, they will respond in kind, But if people are treated right from word go, they are basically good.

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Post by Stormy » Tue Aug 16, 2005 6:24 am

Galaxy Girl, I must agree with the last two posts as well - I understand how, working in a prison and seeing the worst of people, you might begin to lose faith in the basic ability of humans to know right from wrong and to prefer right. But even in the case of children having to learn how to socialize - they do something wrong and they know it (why else try to pretend you weren't in the cookie jar?) and this is due to the fact, I believe, that the majority of humans DO have a basic understanding of right and wrong, of good and bad, and that although they may not always do the right thing, they wish they could.

I once read that a bad man is someone who knows he is bad, he may still do bad things, but at the core, whether he admits it or not, he KNOWS he's done something wrong. He is not beyond coming back into balance. I think that most of the "bad" people, even those you see in prison, fit into this category.

Then, the same source said that an evil man is one who does something wrong and truly has no idea that what he's done is wrong. These are the people who won't be coming back, so to speak. I'm sure there are many like this in your prison as well. The real trick here, is to learn to see that there is a difference, and that not all of the prisoners are truly evil men.
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Post by Galaxy Girl » Tue Aug 16, 2005 9:31 am

If people are basically good, and children are innocent and little angels, why must they be taught to share, taught not to hit, not to kick the dog, and so forth? Why are they cruel to other children in school, bully them, and harass them? Is it human nature? And is human nature good?

Yes, there are differences in the prisoners. Some are redeemable. Most are not. They have chosen that path as a way of life. They don't care if it's wrong. They will take what belongs to you and not bat an eyelash if they have to kill you to get it. They feel they have a right to your property that YOU worked for, and they will tell you so. They are very intuitive, can read you like a book, and will use every trick to "work" you to get what they want.

Most are just sneaky little brats that never grew up. Some are career criminals/convicts. And some just aren't "wired right". But even among their own, they have their ways of obtaining an "attitude adjustment".

I think back to when I was young. I didn't obey my parents because I wanted to. When I obeyed, and often I didn't, it was out of fear. My kids were the same way. Now that they're older, I'm learning a lot of things that they did that I never knew about. It's a miracle they're still alive.

I know a lot of good people too, thank goodness, and that restores my faith in my fellow man. But I think someone may have worked long and hard to bring that goodness to the surface. Do people know right from wrong. Absolutely! We all have an inner voice. But some just don't care, and I don't know how you make them care.

I don't know if I'm a pessimist or a realist. Maybe I've just seen too much.
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Post by Kystar » Wed Aug 17, 2005 6:41 am

Honestly, I think children are born with nothing more than instincts. The reason why they do so many "cruel" things is that they're trying to establish their "rank". Humans are pack animals. Until our higher brain develops, we're pretty close to wolves, really. So, children have to be "taught" human actions vs. instictive actions.

Some people never go beyond the instinct. Some people never go beyond the pack and the rank and the law of strong vs weak.
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Post by dragonflydrummer » Wed Aug 17, 2005 9:36 am

Kystar writes:
Some people never go beyond the instinct. Some people never go beyond the pack and the rank and the law of strong vs weak.
I guess to some degree I have to agree with you Ky. Outside of pathology (socio- & psychopaths) I do think it is the cultural and parental/social influences that go a long way towards forming the directions a child's life will take. :-?
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Post by Grumpy » Thu Nov 17, 2005 12:49 pm

Pass the cake.
'Nuff said.

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Post by white_harmony » Fri Nov 18, 2005 2:51 am

Grumpy wrote:Pass the cake.
'Nuff said.

Grumpy :finga:
OMG!! I love that emot! I never even noticed it before!! :finga: .. Thats so awesome!!
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Post by Grumpy » Fri Nov 18, 2005 12:36 pm

MINE MINE MINE MINE MINE MINE !



Grumpy :finga:

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Ragnar
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Post by Ragnar » Sat Nov 19, 2005 2:28 pm

Stormy wrote;
I once read that a bad man is someone who knows he is bad, he may still do bad things, but at the core, whether he admits it or not, he KNOWS he's done something wrong. He is not beyond coming back into balance."

I think there also has to be a desire to be "bad" to make a person "BAD".

I do think that some people are beyond return, Hitler, or the KZ camp guards, for instance.

Also, I think people get adicted to their crimes. The power of the violent bully, or the money of the drug dealer etc, are all "addictions". Once an adict allways an addict.

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Post by BeigeAllen » Sun Nov 20, 2005 12:26 am

You know, I hate to mention this because its a sore subject for some, but since you used Hitler as an example of "beyond return".
At what point does one's evil outdo their good. Is there a finite mark at which the amount of lives you saved topped the amount of lives you killed? Of course, pragmatical formulas stop applying when the victims start being those near and dear to us. However, is there a finite, drawn in the sand, point that really is of no return?
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Ragnar
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Post by Ragnar » Sun Nov 20, 2005 12:53 am

I think some people are accepted by all right thinking society as "beyond the line", Hitler, Stalin, the Yorkshire Ripper to name a few.

Looking at "the Austrian" and Stalin, I do not know if you saw this "world domino day" in the U.S? Any way you know the idea, a couple of million domino's are set up in pretty pictures, then knocked down to the great amusement of the unwashed masses.

I have tried to find a link, but there seem to be no pictures.

However, this year there were 4.3 million stones. If you see what that looks like. THEN imagine 6 million Jews alone. Equate each domino stone you see to a life, THEN "the Austrian", Stalin, Pohl pot etc are put into perspective.
MOST people only have a slight grasp on what a "million" is.

As to the "general" murderer, there is a saying I am sure you know but;

"One is accident, two is coincidence, three will get you the chair".

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Post by dragonflydrummer » Wed Nov 23, 2005 9:06 am

BeigeAllen asks:
At what point does one's evil outdo their good. Is there a finite mark at which the amount of lives you saved topped the amount of lives you killed?
I don't think it's really a balance although often Justice is portrayed as such. For example -- if you save a million and one lives but slaughter a million other people -- you still slaughtered a million people. The crime isn't expunged by the earlier good. It's a crime. I think the point of no return is when you murder the first one.

Still -- as I think I understand Ragnar to say, there's a point when a person is so conditioned by the impulse to do evil, that it takes over past any recognition that what they have done is wrong -- or even that the concept of wrong becomes irrelevant to them. I think most humans have this capacity -- if the general denial that takes over during times of war is any indication. Some people though, like Hitler or Dick Cheney seem more inclined to it.

Hey Grumpy -- :thefinger:
The spirit abides immovable; it beholds the infernal monsters swarm down upon it, and does not fear. (Eliphas Levi -- The Sixth Hour)

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Post by Chelle » Wed Nov 23, 2005 3:19 pm

Well, the amount of second, third, forth pieces of cake Ive had I'm a bad sinner who is gonna go straight to hell lol!!!

There are some really evil people out there and this twat on the TV is worrying about how much cake someone is eating! What sort of world do we live in

Everyone should relax and treat themselves to loads of luxuries. It does not make you a sinner.

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Be what you are and not what other people want you to be!!! xxxx

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Post by Rain ForestMoon » Thu Nov 24, 2005 3:04 am

I think in order to be evil there needs to be intent.

Just because things turn out bad and whole nations get wiped out, that's not evil as such (s..t happens!). But if the intent was there to do that, then it's evil.

As for "sin" - well there's no such thing, I believe. It's just a thing to keep the stupid masses in check.


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Ragnar
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Post by Ragnar » Thu Nov 24, 2005 9:46 am

I've benn thinking about this one for a few days.

Was Hitler evil? Or any other dictator?

If he had not had people who thought he'd had a "jolly good idea", and gone along with it, Hitler would have remained the "Nutter in the pub" that no one listens to but takes the ...(Well you know) out of a lot.

AFTER he realised that his orders were being carried out, THEN it becomes evil. But just to try out a couple of ideas around the bar after a couple of schnapps is not, in it's self "evil".

But I believe that the camp guards, Himmler and his band, bore, initialy, more responsibility for these crimes than Hitler did.

When He was told of the result of the Wansee conference, (the conference that started the Holocaust in 1942), he specificaly ordered that he was NOT to be told any more.

THAT, I believe is where it became "evil", as he could have ended it there and then, but did not. THAT is the point when he became the criminal we all accept him to be.

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