Born a sinner~how do you deal?

Discussions of all things pagan and neo-pagan.
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2Crunchy
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Post by 2Crunchy » Fri Jul 01, 2005 5:42 pm

Rain ForestMoon wrote: Additionally christianity as a religion is essentially a creation of Paul (who never even met Jesus). Paul, by all accounts, was a tyrannical control-freak. And for some reason (probably because he was such a bully and had a way with words) Paul's ideas took precedence over the views of the people that had actually been followers of Jesus when he was alive.
Ahhh, But herein comes the real question (although it is quite a tangent). Was there ever REALLY an historical Jesus, or is the whole religion just fabricated by Paul? And I agree he was a control freak and apparently had some serious issues with women.
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Post by Rain ForestMoon » Fri Jul 01, 2005 8:07 pm

2Crunchy wrote: Ahhh, But herein comes the real question (although it is quite a tangent). Was there ever REALLY an historical Jesus, or is the whole religion just fabricated by Paul? And I agree he was a control freak and apparently had some serious issues with women.
I am prepared to accept Jesus as a historical Jewish figure who probably got executed for stirring up trouble. (After all, Islam lists him as a (minor) Prophet. We could be regard that as some independent verification.) From what one reads the Romans were not inclined to tolerate any nonsense in their provinces...

But I think the whole thing got completely blown out of proportion and Paul made the most of the situation, borrowed from here and there (expecially Mithra, I think) and, hey presto, Christianity had arrived..
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Paul, Paul why were you such a pill?

Post by dragonflydrummer » Sun Jul 03, 2005 12:32 am

Rain ForestMoon wrote:
But I think the whole thing got completely blown out of proportion and Paul made the most of the situation, borrowed from here and there (expecially Mithra, I think) and, hey presto, Christianity had arrived..
Ahhhhhh... Paul. The Roman soldier in charge of persecuting Xtians, who supposedly was struck (temporarily) blind from his horse with the realization of the error of his ways, and then went on to organize the xtians into the basic church set-up we know today... Claiming to be an Apostle even though he had never met the master.

Yes he was a bit of a B.S. artist and a controller wasn't he? He seemed to like making rules, establishing hierarchies, and evangelizing an awful lot. The kind of fellow who feels entitled to appropriate others' lives and intentions, by getting everyone "organized."

I think the Xtian concept began to take a serious turn for the worse as soon as he came upon the scene...

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The spirit abides immovable; it beholds the infernal monsters swarm down upon it, and does not fear. (Eliphas Levi -- The Sixth Hour)

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Post by 2Crunchy » Sun Jul 03, 2005 6:19 am

Rain ForestMoon wrote:I am prepared to accept Jesus as a historical Jewish figure who probably got executed for stirring up trouble. (After all, Islam lists him as a (minor) Prophet. We could be regard that as some independent verification.)
I wouldn't consider that terribly "independant". Muhammad didn't receive his first revelations for the Qu'ran until 610. By then xtianity was very well established. Constantine "converted" to xctianity in 312. The Council of Nicea (which is most responsible for the structure and beliefs of the Catholic Church, NOT the Bible) was 325. Constantine declared Rome a xtian nation in 330. That's almost 300 years before Muhammad even finished his book which is the foundation for Islam. He wasn't writing in a bubble and would have undoubtedly been influenced by the xtian church'w power and influence.

But really it's all moot. Even if Jesus did truly live, we will never know what kind of person he really was or what his life was like. Jesus the myth was been created by Paul and the early xtians and has been elaborated through the ages. Little bits of other belief systems and myths have been thrown in here and there. And voila! Instant savior!
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Post by Rain ForestMoon » Sun Jul 03, 2005 11:20 pm

2Crunchy wrote: I wouldn't consider that terribly "independant". Muhammad didn't receive his first revelations for the Qu'ran until 610. By then xtianity was very well established. Constantine "converted" to xctianity in 312. The Council of Nicea (which is most responsible for the structure and beliefs of the Catholic Church, NOT the Bible) was 325. Constantine declared Rome a xtian nation in 330. That's almost 300 years before Muhammad even finished his book which is the foundation for Islam. He wasn't writing in a bubble and would have undoubtedly been influenced by the xtian church'w power and influence.
I think you have a good point there, I had not considered that.

And talking of control freaks and issues with women .... Mohammed seems to have been one of those too.

As for Constantine (or Saint Constantine, as the orthodox christians call him), well, he was just a plain thug. When he was a pagan he persecuted christians, and as soon as he "converted" to christianity he started giving pagans a hard time.

(By that time of course the Roman Empire had split in two, with the western one not having much longer to live, while the eastern one technically lasted till just after about the year 1000 or so.)

One could ask if Moses, Paul and Mohammed were the same person?????
They seem to have had an awful lot in common.

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Post by Rhiannon » Mon Jul 11, 2005 4:05 am

Most of the organised religions have problems with women, that's why I have problems with most of the organised religions. Some of the things they say make sense and then they go and do or say something that is completely contradictory. After all if Jesus died on the cross to cleanse us from sin
He "loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood" (Revelation 1:5).
then that must have included the 'original sin', so why all the fuss forbidding women from becoming ordained? :-?
"All violence, all that is dreary and repels, is not power, but the absence of power." Ralph Waldo Emerson

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Post by dragonflydrummer » Tue Jul 12, 2005 6:27 am

Because it's a Boy's Club, Rhiannon -- and empowering women
at this late stage of the game is likely to open a great big can of worms
in just about every avenue of their power structure.
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The spirit abides immovable; it beholds the infernal monsters swarm down upon it, and does not fear. (Eliphas Levi -- The Sixth Hour)

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Post by Ragnar » Tue Jul 12, 2005 9:44 am

For them to admit women now would be to admit that, for the last 2000 years the church has been falible. No christian, particularly a catholic would ever admit the pope/church could make a mistake.

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Post by forgotten oceans » Tue Aug 02, 2005 9:51 am

IMO, pagans don't have sin, we have personal standards and ethics. Pagans usually follow what is in there hearts, not what's in a book written over 2000 years ago by people who by large couldn't read or write. I believe the idea of sin and the major religions came out of a need to unify nations and create a stable government for flailing upstart countries, sorta like communism. The middle east is too far from the Romans for the Romans to actually do what a good government needs to do to create and maintain a working country. When the middle easterners realized this it's like the saw a chance to turn everything around in their favor and on top of that up comes Christ, the green peace leader of their day. The stage was set, the actors in place and the house was packed, the only thing left was to pull the curtains. And whamo! Christianity was born and everything that went with it. So with all that, sins just another piece of propaganda. I hope that someone got something out of this and I'm not just talking out of my a$$. ;)
Maybe now you're starting to understand that while I may have been born predispositioned to be pretty batty, my parents saw to it that it was a certainty and completely unavoidable. -Me

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Post by Ragnar » Tue Aug 02, 2005 12:09 pm

"Sin" is the old way of scaring people into accepting control of thier lives and freedoms by people who we supposedly chose to govern us, or are chosen by the popes and their other church equivalents. Those that can create a problem and a solution in one go can control any number of people that are willing to believe. Germany in the 1930's is a perfect example. The nazi dross created political instability by causing riots, then blaming it on the opposition, then immediatly saying "you need strong leader-ship, which we can provide". The people fell for the political move the same way 1,930 years before they fell for the spiritual equivalent of "sin" and "salvation".
Today we call it "terrorism". Different name same effect. The governments control our movements, even our thoughts, through the press, by telling us all about the terrorist threat. Then coming up with the solution of suppression of rights of freedom. The "ancients had no Al quida, or whatever, so they came up with "sin".
Pure "headology".

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Post by scoia » Tue Aug 02, 2005 6:50 pm

In terms of the falliablility of the church, that has already been admitted by the last Pope. He apologised for the behaviour of the papacy/vatican during the holocaust.

Rightly so, but in doing so, he has admitted that the Pope at the time was falliable, and made mistakes. It was a huge change in doctrine that many people seemed to ignore. The cannot now say that the papacy is infalliable, it's already been admitted.

They have no 'excuse' to fail to apologise for bad behaviour / doctrine on behalf of the church.
First they ignore you.
Then they laught at you.
Then they fight you.
Then you win.
--Ghandi

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Post by Ragnar » Tue Aug 02, 2005 11:46 pm

The admitance of mistakes during WWII (which, as it was reported in Euorope, nearly caused a split in the church), was all good and well. It was not an admitance of a flaw in fundemental spiritual doctrine, which admiting women would be.

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Post by dragonflydrummer » Wed Aug 03, 2005 10:17 am

Yeah, Imagine if they had to admit to a Divine Feminine and kick the Holy Ghost out of the Trinity, so The Holy Mother could sit there. That would certainly upset a few Xtian applecarts ! Heh heh heh...

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But then wouldn't that be a whole lot healthier picture of the world? Poor Mary -- she gets the shaft no matter how you look at it ! That gets reflected down into a lot of relationships as well. As above so below. It's better to have a more balanced paradigm. I wish they'd get a clue...
The spirit abides immovable; it beholds the infernal monsters swarm down upon it, and does not fear. (Eliphas Levi -- The Sixth Hour)

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Post by Galaxy Girl » Mon Aug 15, 2005 9:46 pm

Well, I don't know about being born a sinner, but I did raise four kids. So what I DO know, is that kids will almost always go the wrong way, do the wrong thing, behave badly, etc., unless they are constantly corrected. So maybe it's the tendency to "sin".... or break the law of God, that's inborn.

Now, I work in a prison. Many of them are lifers....and in fact, almost all of them are because they haven't learned anything while they're in there. They still steal, beat each other up....(today 6 guys beat up an inmate in the laundry...3 stab wounds and severe head trauma), and break every law and rule they can. So prison will be a revolving door for them. Were they born innocent? What happened?

Whether it's the Ten Commandments, the Law of Loving your fellow man, or whatever you want to call it, it doesn't come naturally. It must be taught, and taught diligently. Otherwise, selfishness takes over and people live under razor wire for the rest of their lives. Everyone wants to live in a community where people obey the Ten Commandments....no?
Grace and kindness create powerful ripples in the world.

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Post by dragonflydrummer » Mon Aug 15, 2005 11:44 pm

Galaxy Girl emphatically states:
Whether it's the Ten Commandments, the Law of Loving your fellow man, or whatever you want to call it, it doesn't come naturally. It must be taught, and taught diligently. Otherwise, selfishness takes over and people live under razor wire for the rest of their lives.
I simply don't believe this G.G.. I think people -- given a loving and supportive environment to grow in are basically good. Sure kids need to learn social skills, but given that fact -- everyone is looking to love and be loved unless they are taught otherwise.

You can take a puppy -- treat it right and show it love and caring and you get a friendly loving dog -- beat it and mistreat it -- and you'll get a vicious one. People aren't really much different. A little smarter maybe...

Anyway I don't think people are inherently bad. Some of the anarchists I've met say: "Laws are useless -- the good people don't need 'em, and the bad people won't follow 'em." I'm not as purist as that. I do think systems of fair laws are good in a society that fosters a positive life for people, and laws are evil when utilized to form a police state.

I don't think sin has anything to do with it. In a police state it is common that good people come under the razor-wire.
The spirit abides immovable; it beholds the infernal monsters swarm down upon it, and does not fear. (Eliphas Levi -- The Sixth Hour)

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