Born a sinner~how do you deal?

Discussions of all things pagan and neo-pagan.
User avatar
Crazy Healer Lady
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 3589
Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2005 6:31 pm
Location: Mission, BC
Zodiac: Libra
Contact:

Post by Crazy Healer Lady » Thu Nov 24, 2005 10:52 am

I've got to agree with Ragnar on most points. I don't believe in true evil, but there is a point in humanity that we can reach and call evil.

Hitler was raised with these ideas about the Jews. Heck, everyone hated the Jews. A plague comes about and "Hey, let's blame the Jews! We'll torture them until they confess of dumping poison in the water!" :evil:

And let's face it: Hitler suffered from "Short-Man-High-Voice Syndrome" or SMHVS. (Sorry, a joke my friend and I have about the short men in the world always being ready to fight and to take over the world. Really just a joke.)

Hitler I think comes pretty darn close to being evil, but most of his outrageous evil acts came about when it's very safe to say he became insane. I agree with Ragnar in that Himmler and Hitler's closest confidants take the same or more blame. Hitler would have remained the "nutter in the pub" as Ragnar put it if the German people had not bought in to vocal tricks (never mind that they were desperate for a bit of patriotism and pride - the same thing could happen easily here and I would say that the American people had done the same with Bush except he has no vocal talent whatsoever... that is except making up new words).

I think the fact of the matter is that we all can fall into what we now would see as evil pretty easily. In a time and/or place where murdering someone for stealing your goat would be acceptable, it would not be seen as bad. It's a little different than murdering 6 million Jews, I admit, but it was seen as acceptable by Hitler and the officers doing the killing and those in support of Hitler's "grand plan." In Aztec times you captured your enemy and you killed him to appease the Gods. I forget how many they killed and why exactly, but there were natural disasters and they sacrificed many thousands (may have been millions but I do not have my facts on this :oops: )of people in I think 3 days. This was acceptable to them. The Aztec king's daughter was raped and sacrificed (plus details I will not mention here... very gruesome), so he took the one who did it and tied him to the ground in the desert and poured (salt?? salt water??) on him so that his skin dried in the sun and broke while he was still alive. It was revenge, but I don't see it as evil, nor the many many sacrifices. This is what they thought was necessary, this is what was acceptable.

Okay jeez this is long enough ><
Crazy Healer Lady
Health and happiness to you!

The purpose of a relationship is not to have another who might complete you, but to have another with whom you might share your completeness. -CWG

User avatar
Kelreth
Level 13
Level 13
Posts: 365
Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2005 10:39 pm
Location: Wisconsin, US
Contact:

Post by Kelreth » Thu Dec 08, 2005 9:25 pm

The Aztecs sacrificed captured enemies and possibly criminals (not to sure on that one) to their sun god. They believed that he(i think) needed the blood of humans to survive and to continue his rotation around the world.

They sacrificed by cutting out the still beating heart and offering it to their god. They would then put the heart into a bowl which is used later on in another cermonony and would then push the body down the steps. Thus the steps were covered in larger quantities of blood. And they had big pits into which they would place the bodies, where they were either burned or buried.

arg, here is a clearer explanation:

The Aztecs worshiped a war god called Huitzilopitchli, who took on the likeness of the sun over time. It was thought that in order to insure the sun's arrival each day, a steady supply of human hearts had to be offered in holy sacrifice (Hogg:43). They believed that the sun and earth had already been destroyed four times, and in their time of the 5th sun, final destruction would soon be upon them. In order to delay this dreadful fate, the practice of human sacrifice became a major element in Aztec society and livelihood (Meyer & Sherman:67).

The most common form of sacrifice was performed outside, on the top of a great pyramid. The victim was spread-eagled on a round stone, with his back arched. His limbs were held, while a priest used an obsidian knife to cut under the rib cage and remove his heart. This method was used when honoring the sun god, Huitzilopitchli. Each god apparently preferred a different form of sacrifice. For the fertility god Xipe Totec, the person was tied to a post and shot full of arrows. His blood flowing out represented the cool spring rains (Meyer & Sherman:69). The fire god required a newly wed couple. They were thrown into the god's altars and allowed to burn and at the last minute they were taken out and had their hearts removed as a second offering (Hogg :48). The earth mother goddess, Teteoinnan, was extremely important. At harvest time, a female victim was flayed and her skin was carried ceremoniously to one of the temples. Her skin was worn by an officiating priest who then symbolized the goddess herself (Meyer & Sherman:44 Human sacrifices were seen in many different cultures in Latin American, such as Olmecs, Mayans and the Moche.

http://www.mnsu.edu/emuseum/prehistory/ ... ifice.html


I believe the mass sacrifice that was 3 days long held the deaths of possibly a hundred + thousand captives. There was a show on discovery channel to try to figure out how it was possible to sacrifice that many people in 3 days. Lots of temples and a long line of willing sacra fices. Yes, willing, they believe that sacrifice to a god was an honorable way to die and were treated extremely well before death. Lots of food and virgins
i am prone to free association. Basically whatever i think i type, so sorry if things get really erratic...

User avatar
Crazy Healer Lady
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 3589
Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2005 6:31 pm
Location: Mission, BC
Zodiac: Libra
Contact:

Post by Crazy Healer Lady » Thu Dec 08, 2005 11:13 pm

:-o THANK YOU!

:-D I have been looking for Aztec information! Especially on the big 3-day sacrifice...
Crazy Healer Lady
Health and happiness to you!

The purpose of a relationship is not to have another who might complete you, but to have another with whom you might share your completeness. -CWG

User avatar
Kelreth
Level 13
Level 13
Posts: 365
Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2005 10:39 pm
Location: Wisconsin, US
Contact:

Post by Kelreth » Fri Dec 09, 2005 8:10 am

Np. I retain way to much stangant information anyway. Its nice let it out every now and then
i am prone to free association. Basically whatever i think i type, so sorry if things get really erratic...

User avatar
Crazy Healer Lady
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 3589
Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2005 6:31 pm
Location: Mission, BC
Zodiac: Libra
Contact:

Post by Crazy Healer Lady » Fri Dec 09, 2005 10:13 am

:-D You should write it all out.

And then send it to me!
lol jk

But I do love this stuff!
Crazy Healer Lady
Health and happiness to you!

The purpose of a relationship is not to have another who might complete you, but to have another with whom you might share your completeness. -CWG

User avatar
Kelreth
Level 13
Level 13
Posts: 365
Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2005 10:39 pm
Location: Wisconsin, US
Contact:

Post by Kelreth » Fri Dec 09, 2005 11:56 am

I think i would leave this world before i got all of the information out of my mind.
i am prone to free association. Basically whatever i think i type, so sorry if things get really erratic...

User avatar
Rissa
Level 1
Level 1
Posts: 9
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2005 7:01 am
Contact:

Post by Rissa » Sun Dec 18, 2005 4:09 am

Biblically speaking "we've all sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God" that glory being the only thing that can save our sorry butts (according to them). Children are born with natural sin because - well basically we ate from the wrong tree. (personally the tree of life sounds way better) :-D We weren't supposed to have this "knowledge" we were supposed to be ignorant and blissful.

Children aren't immune to this. However, it doesn't seem to make a difference to God until they hit about 12 or 13. The age that Jesus was when he started preaching. (interestingly enough.. Jesus himself dropped off the record until that time. It seems that we are to believe that children are more under the influence of their parents and aren't "bad" until then.

So, as far as the bible goes ppl been separated from God by sin. So far from God have we fallen that his ears no longer hear our prayers. Jesus is the mediator between Gods children and himself.

I don't think about Sin much anymore. Try to live my life the way I feel is right. I have all kinds of things that I don't like about myself that I struggle to understand and work on. but I don't think of those things as my sins.
I kind-of, think the reason that no one feels guilty about this is because people today, realize more than ever, that we are "human". we all screw up and we can't go around blaming our ancestors ancestors ancestor for our own problems. We are all- also - in need of love. Not someone to point out that everything that comes out of our mouths is going to end up being hurtful lies or that we're innately bad. bullying people into a religion rarely works if people take the time to use their heads

User avatar
Kelreth
Level 13
Level 13
Posts: 365
Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2005 10:39 pm
Location: Wisconsin, US
Contact:

Post by Kelreth » Sun Dec 18, 2005 5:27 pm

Sin is a creation of the mind, nothign more

well at least too me. Which means i either have a massive defense mechanism going or dont know what the heck i am talking about
i am prone to free association. Basically whatever i think i type, so sorry if things get really erratic...

User avatar
Ragnar
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 2820
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2005 12:26 pm
Location: Preußen (Deutschland).
Contact:

Post by Ragnar » Mon Dec 19, 2005 12:24 am

Just looked at the begining of this topic.

Astounding. We have kept to theme for more or less five pages!

THAT must be some sort of record.

I wonder if "Guest" ever returned to see how their topic was going?

"Kelreth
sin is a creation of the mind, nothign more "

It's a creation of the "church" mind, as a form of control by fear.

"Oh deary me I have sinned, I thought about stealing a pack of sugar. Now I will burn in Hell for ever, along with that Mr Hitler guy.....?? Wait a minute, if I get the same sentence as him, then I may as well go out and murder 10 million people! Bank robberys! EVERTHING! \:D/ \:D/ "

Or may be such cynicism is also a sin? Or is that SINacism? :lol:

Perhaps THAT was what that apple in that garden place did, gave the guy the "Yeah "God" that'ad be right, you think I'm stoopid or what?" syndrome. =D> Well done "God".

User avatar
Kelreth
Level 13
Level 13
Posts: 365
Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2005 10:39 pm
Location: Wisconsin, US
Contact:

Post by Kelreth » Mon Dec 19, 2005 2:58 pm

Yup, sin is made by the church. It is truely effective until people see a different light
i am prone to free association. Basically whatever i think i type, so sorry if things get really erratic...

User avatar
katsu
Level 12
Level 12
Posts: 341
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2004 11:55 am
Location: The Netherlands
Contact:

Post by katsu » Tue Dec 20, 2005 5:42 am

Rissa wrote: Children are born with natural sin because - well basically we ate from the wrong tree.
Trust me, there's no such thing as a 'wrong' tree. Grumpy, uncooperative, maybe. :lol: But wrong no.....
/|\

User avatar
Kelreth
Level 13
Level 13
Posts: 365
Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2005 10:39 pm
Location: Wisconsin, US
Contact:

Post by Kelreth » Tue Dec 20, 2005 11:18 am

katsu wrote:
Rissa wrote: Children are born with natural sin because - well basically we ate from the wrong tree.
Trust me, there's no such thing as a 'wrong' tree. Grumpy, uncooperative, maybe. :lol: But wrong no.....
lol only trees that blast ignorance way are "wrong" but they dont exist fortunatly/unfortunatly
i am prone to free association. Basically whatever i think i type, so sorry if things get really erratic...

User avatar
Rissa
Level 1
Level 1
Posts: 9
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2005 7:01 am
Contact:

Post by Rissa » Wed Dec 21, 2005 4:09 am

hehe. I don't think it was wrong one. However, I'm not Christian nor big on the bible. God probably said something like... "any tree, yep you can have the fruit off any tree, but that big one over there-- with the nice big juicy- looking fruit on it.. pretty green leaves.. oh yeah, not that one!"
never quite understood why he bothered to put it there then.

User avatar
Kelreth
Level 13
Level 13
Posts: 365
Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2005 10:39 pm
Location: Wisconsin, US
Contact:

Post by Kelreth » Wed Dec 21, 2005 6:52 am

so the church would have a valid reason to control the masses by the threat of eternal damnation from the start of their lives.
i am prone to free association. Basically whatever i think i type, so sorry if things get really erratic...

User avatar
Kystar
Level 57
Level 57
Posts: 1684
Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 7:46 am
Location: White Oak, PA
Zodiac: Cancer
Contact:

Post by Kystar » Wed Dec 21, 2005 8:14 am

Actually, I've always had the idea that he put the silly tree there as a test to see how cowed he had those two. Ego trip..."LOOK! They're so afraid of me they won't eat from a tree that will give them intelligence. Good stupid Man! I created a pet! LOVELY! Wait, woman! Don't LISTEN TO THAT SNAKE! Ah heck!"
You say "Witch" like it's a bad thing!

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests